How to Find Your Next Marketing Ops Role with Chelsea Rosenberg

Michael Hartmann: 0:27

Hello and welcome everybody to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by the Mo Pros now powered by marketingops.com. I'm your host Michael Hartmann joined today by cohost Naomi Liu and Mike Rizzo in we're gonna do this again. The year of the.

Mike Rizzo: 0:42

It's the year of Mo Pro. I think, I feel like we have to, until the end of the

Michael Hartmann: 0:45

All right. So the year of 20, 20, 22.

Mike Rizzo: 0:49

The end of 2022, we will stop saying.

Michael Hartmann: 0:52

Naomi, are you okay with that?

Naomi Liu: 0:53

I'm totally fine with that.

Mike Rizzo: 0:55

I may pick it back up though and say it's the decade of the Mo problem. I'm just kidding. I won't go that far.

Michael Hartmann: 1:01

Then we have to get into discussion about when does the decade start and what does it end? And that could be a real battle.

Mike Rizzo: 1:06

That's true.

Michael Hartmann: 1:07

but we won't go down their. Instead, let's get on with this, with our guests. So joining us today to talk about getting your next marketing ops role. So I know there's a lot of people who are moving or interested in moving is Chelsea Rosenberg. Chelsea has been in the recruiting people ops in coaching slash counseling space for over 10 years, with seven of those specializing in all things marketing. So three years ago, she became hyper specialized in marketing operations and is proud to have become a respected and often reach referred resource for marketing op professionals. As they look for new career adventures work to grow their team and learn the skills needed to navigate the world. In addition to recruiting and people ops Chelsea is proud to share her passion for coaching and guiding others to uncover their fullest potential in supporting them in reaching their goals through her consultancy, sprout bright consulting. And I will say Chelsea has been a good resource for me as well at one point in my to search. So Chelsea, thank you for joining us today.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 2:01

Yes, of course. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Michael Hartmann: 2:04

All right. I think our first guest from Iowa. we

Mike Rizzo: 2:09

Hey, that's awesome. I didn't know.

Michael Hartmann: 2:11

We, I,

Mike Rizzo: 2:11

gonna see if we get a uptick in Iowa downloads

Michael Hartmann: 2:14

Though I live in Texas now, I'm originally from the Midwest. So in, so I have a soft spot there.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 2:18

Thanks.

Michael Hartmann: 2:21

All right. So we've we, you and I know have talked about career journeys, lows, actually on our podcast. We've talked about career journeys, a number of times, and other sort of generally like career stuff, some about like, how do what, how do you get to seat at the table? How do improve your stack? That kinda stuff. What we haven't really talked about is, the nuts and bolts of finding another role. So why don't we start with. Chelsea, how someone should approach going from maybe there's more than one take on this, but more, from a more junior role, maybe a, an early initial role to a more senior role and start with there. But, and then what is your advice for listeners who either wanna go from an entry level to the next step or from an individual contributor to a management role? And I, I'm gonna throw this one in there just as I thought of it as. As I'm talking, but what about somebody? Maybe, even if it makes sense, somebody who has been doing something else or just coming into the, to the job market, who's interested in just breaking in.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 3:16

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good question. I just wanna get a lot, right? Cuz marketing ops tends to be you. You either have the experience or you don't right. You can't really fake it. And that one is it is tough to break into, but there's definitely ways to do it. In terms of, say you've been in a MOS role I don't know for a year or something and a management opportunity comes up. My first piece of advice around that is to like, take a minute and figure out, really deeply think and figure out your why. Like, why do you wanna get into management? And I think even from going, into a more senior role as an IC, you still need to consider your why. That's gonna be super, super helpful, as you start to develop a plan for, your career growth you can't really go into it, just shooting from the hip, you gotta know what you're looking for and why you're looking for it. And knowing that, really makes conversations with leadership makes interviews a million times easier because you're really able to articulate what it is that's important to you. Or, who know, maybe you'll find that after considering it more, if there was a management opportunity you may find that you just want to get into management because you want a bigger paycheck, which I can tell you right now is not setting yourself up for. Either yourself or your direct reports, I'm sure. Have you guys ever had a manager that was not a good manager and just took the job because they wanted the title or the pay. It's pretty terrible. It's pretty terrible.

Michael Hartmann: 4:37

I think I was that manager in my first management role.

Mike Rizzo: 4:39

Oh

Naomi Liu: 4:40

Oh

Michael Hartmann: 4:40

no, and maybe not so much about, no, not so much about like chasing the dollars, but saying, oh that's the sort of natural next step in career.

Mike Rizzo: 4:48

Yeah, it feels that way.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 4:49

Yeah. You really have to feel, cuz I've I talk to a lot of people that, they think that management is the, that's the only other opportunity for them, but they don't really want to be a manager. So really figuring out, like I said, if you know your why, then you can figure out the best way, maybe it's to move companies and get a more senior role or talk to your current management and see if there's an opportunity to take on more responsibility, that sort of thing. But. Yeah. It does tend to be everyone assumes that. Okay, now I'm a senior. It's not, the only way to go up is to be a manager. And I don't think that's true, especially with, cuz the Mo's landscape is changing. It seems like almost every day. The approaches to things, how teams are set up, specializations, obviously there's like the four pillars, and that's not necessarily. I don't wanna I, the four pillars are very important, but I don't think they should be considered in terms of. As you're thinking about your career, right? You don't, it's not like cops is the lowest on the totem pole or, campaign ops is the lowest on the totem pole and to move up, you have to get into platform. It really just depends. And I think at the root of anything, in terms of, your next career move, it really comes down to your why, maybe as you're thinking about it, you're like, oh, okay, I do wanna be a senior person, but I don't really. Like data visualization skills or, I haven't really been exposed to many data platforms. And that would be something that you could focus on to be able to, position yourself well for getting a more senior role. and another thing I would add to is talk to the people that are doing what you wanna do, it's one for networking, which is so important. And I feel like I'm just like beating the drum that everyone else has been beating about the importance of networking. But it's really, it's true. Both from a, get the job you want. It's all about who, and also from a perspective of learning, right? The only, I know, there's a lot of people that are like, oh, I learn best by doing, which is great. But if you don't have access to, I don't know, maybe you're interested in learning part out or something. If you don't have access to a part instance, it's all theoretical. So you wanna talk to people who are actually doing it and learn from them.

Michael Hartmann: 6:54

So I want go drill down on something you talked about knowing your why, or put it in a general self-awareness. Bucket, which I've gone through exercises to do that. I think it's part of why I, I guess the people I managed would be the best judges of this, but I feel like I'm a better manager than it was in that first one, because I think I was more prepared about how I wanted to lead, but I'm curious, how do for our listeners who maybe have don't know how to even go about figuring that out? Do you have any suggestions of books or programs or people or whatever that they could go to to try to help them through that?

Chelsea Rosenberg: 7:29

Yeah, absolutely. Obviously I, I'm a professional development and leadership coach, so of course I'm gonna, shameless plug we're yeah. There that, but working with a coach is really helpful. Because they're gonna ask you questions and guide you to mindsets or perspectives that you may not have considered in terms of, exercises it's really, I think it starts with, and I'm gonna get all like philosophical here, but it really. With understanding your own values. Cuz if you're just, like I said, shooting from the hip or making stuff up as you go or oh, that job looks interesting, but you're not, you don't know why it looks interesting. You're not gonna get really very far. So it, I. To understand your why you need to understand your values first, and then you create your why around that. You can't have a why, if you don't know your values, does that make sense? Have you guys ever done values exercises? Was it

Michael Hartmann: 8:19

I have it. Yeah. Yeah. So I've done different things. I, I. Have a friend who was a coach who was just kicking that off. So I was lucky to be a yeah. And it was really helpful. I also, I'm curious what your thoughts are. Like, I've also done Myers, Briggs and strengths finder, and some of these other sort of I don't know if we call'em personality assessments or not, but do you think those are helpful or harmful or a little bit of both on how you look at it?

Chelsea Rosenberg: 8:45

Ooh, you really wanna go into that? No, here's my thought. So Myers Briggs, I think specifically is really. Helpful for the individual. I am 100% against using it for, like trying to find your next, like using it in recruitment. I absolutely loathe and I think it's discriminatory and

Michael Hartmann: 9:05

Oh, yeah. So just to be clear I'm thinking more about to get to that your why kinda self kind of awareness stuff not would totally agree. I not, I would not be a fan of using it for hiring.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 9:18

No, it's super bad, do not do that. And if you're asked to do that runaway very quickly but yeah.

Mike Rizzo: 9:23

that just cuz I back when I was a little earlier in my career, I had actually taken some of the data. There was one that. Says who you're like, like it pulls like a character out of history or out of like time and like they have these little caricatures or whatever. I can't remember which one it is right now, but apparently I was most similar to John Snow from game of Thrones. And then

Michael Hartmann: 9:51

does that count as a historical figure?

Mike Rizzo: 9:53

It was fictional characters and non fictional characters. They would pull different concepts from personality traits and stuff. So it was John Snow and, oh gosh I can't think of the other one, but it was a major historical figure in American history that I just can't think of right now. But so I put that on there though. And then what I didn't realize is that was actually potentially hurting me. Cuz you know, someone's gonna look at that and go, no, we don't want to. John Snow here.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 10:19

Yeah, but from a, from like a self-awareness perspective, it's really interesting, right? Because you as a human it's really hard for us to. View ourselves from the outside. So if someone is like that tool that you were talking about, if it's able to put a context to it oh, you are. When I think of you being John Snow, I think of, like cautious, but brave, willing to, do the scary stuff. And I think that from a self-awareness perspective, that is really helpful. And I do like it, like I said, from, for yourself, but not for let me take that back. So Myers Bri specifically going back to that one, I think is helpful once someone has been hired, and Michael, you may, you all of y'all may agree, but when you have direct reports understanding that about them, understanding how they think is really is really helpful. and I do think from uncovering and understanding your why? I think that is, it is a good, it is a good tool. Yeah, there's like high five Myers, Briggs. Like you can get, I can't remember what the the youngian one is, but there's,

Michael Hartmann: 11:22

I've used strengths finder or now discover your strengths. When I first did it to as a sort of a team building exercise with multiple teams and mostly just sorted to understand, help each other, help all of us understand. How we be, how we work best, where we're gonna be the most productive. And I've had a number of things that have been enlightening from that. Like I've had one person who I was encouraging to take on more more sort of extra projects of work, thinking that he might be interested in a management role. And it was became pretty obvious why that had never really sucked him in after we did that. was not what he was interested like it became, so he had a, could have a very open conversation with him from a coaching standpoint. It, Naomi, I'm curious. Do you ever, have you ever done anything like that with your teams over time or used any of those kinds of tools?

Naomi Liu: 13:19

I've taken it as part of like management workshops at work, but not with the team directly, but, folks that have direct reports we've done a workshop like that.

Michael Hartmann: 13:31

Yeah,

Mike Rizzo: 13:32

I found those to be interest like earlier in my career. I didn't I was like, cool. Like some data about me. And then as I progressed along I found it and I still find it quite difficult to operationalize that or use it consistently. And it, especially as just a team member in general, if you're managing people, it's a little different. Maybe you part make it a part of your routine to remind yourself of who that individual is. According to these results. And and have an open conversation with them, but keep that sort of a part of your engagement strategy. But gosh, as a team member, gone through those exercises a number of times. And we even went so far in my former organization to pin them to our like little cubicle like area so that if somebody walked up, there's at least some sort of frame of reference to say oh mike is a so and and whatever, but gosh, it's really hard to leverage that and say, oh, what does that mean again? That means that. They need a minute to stay quiet, to think about their response and that isn't awkward. Whatever it is. But it's hard to operationalize that. And that's the thing that I find most difficult about all of it, but ultimately I, earlier on, I passed it off a little bit, I brushed it away and now I like. I guess for the listeners out there, if you're earlier in your career, you've never done one before. They really are super, super important and super helpful, especially if everybody has an open conversation about it, which I think is the most important piece. Michael, as you said, like the team building activity around, it can be

Michael Hartmann: 15:08

that, that was for, I would like you, I think I had taken him early on in my career, just this is just a bunch of EY. And it was not until we did it as a group exercise. it was share, revealed what you everybody's style was that happened to be Myers Briggs one. And it was a very interesting sort of experience to go through that and kinda understand how other people were operating. But

Chelsea Rosenberg: 15:31

It goes back to self-awareness right. And my mindset and thought around those types of things, the personalities and that sort of thing is think of it as advice, right? You'd get to choose what advice you take. So there may be some super helpful nuggets in there. It may all be. Hogwash from Iowa. That was weird. Pretend that didn't happen.

Michael Hartmann: 15:51

Sorry. I said, who he, so it's.

Mike Rizzo: 15:53

He did say we.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 15:54

it's all caddy won place. It may, it, there's gonna be helpful things and there's gonna be non-helpful things. So just, remember that you have permission to use your discretion, this isn't, like the Chelsea's man, like the owner manual for Chelsea, it's just Hey, these are some things that

Michael Hartmann: 16:11

agree. I think it's all useful sort of data points. If you think of about it in the analogy for, to me is if you get to ask the question was this campaign marketing campaign effective, right? There's not one thing that you're gonna go to, to tell that, that, to answer that question. And so if you think of, I, now I take opportunities to take those when it, when I can, as much as anything, just this sort of. Get another data point about, what's what, where I'm at in terms of how I operate. Okay. So I think I wanna go back to your sort of description as two, two follow up questions. One, one of the things I, that was going through my head is when you were going, like, why is it important to know you're white is so you can identify the kinds of roles that would match. But I think the, the corollary to that I in my mind is also knowing which ones you, you should feel comfortable saying no to. So if you're approached and it's. A bunch of more money or maybe it's you moving into a management role. And, but then you, if you know what you're really gonna do, if you're not gonna really be excited about having a management role, then maybe you should be saying no to that opportunity at that point in time. Thoughts on that. And then I'll ask my other question after that.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 17:18

Yeah. That and saying no is really. For anyone, especially if you're trying to, move up the ladder, but it is important to consider, like I said, and that you had mentioned really understanding your, why will help you understand your overall, like your overarching career goals as well. And that will help, weed out the ones that aren't gonna be. They won't serve you. The roles that won't serve you, the informational meetings that won't serve you yeah it is very hard to learn that skill. But it's definitely one, just in life in general, but specifically in mops, because those tend to turn into order taking roles if you're not careful. So really understanding and being confident in being able to say to

Michael Hartmann: 17:58

Yeah. Okay. So my, my other follow up question, a second follow up question is people like you doing coaching and that kinda stuff. What's your take, like what's the, do you think there's value for people in addition to their self awareness of having maybe not just a coach, but also mentor or mentors who can also be a sounding board that are maybe the reason I've always liked it is I. Intentionally chose to try to get people in my sort of personal, board of directors, if you will to provide different perspectives and call BS on me and to they care, but they don't care too much. It's not something I would do maybe say with my spouse or partner or whatever.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 18:41

yeah, that's really important. But at the same time, that's really hard. It's I, but that's one of the great things about, this community and the marketing operations community as a whole, is that there's a lot of people that are open to being mentors. And it doesn't even just like putting a question or, throwing something up in a channel and getting. People responding. Like you don't necessarily have to have a mentor, but you do need to have somebody, like you said, to really bounce ideas off of. to help you grow right. Different perspectives are how you grow. But yeah, finding a mentor is ideal, but tough. I wish I had just do this and everything will be great. But unfortunately that's not the case, but I do recommend, like maybe there's an old manager that you liked working with or something, or, there's a lot of different places to find mentors. But. As you're waiting to find yours, definitely take advantage of of communities like, like this one, for sure.

Naomi Liu: 19:36

And I find you don't have to have one person that's going to be your mentor for everything. You may have had managers or people that you worked with, or for that, maybe they're really good at certain things. And you can piecemeal together a, mentorship across different people.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 19:51

Yeah, a hundred percent, it kind, it comes back to, what serves you best

Michael Hartmann: 19:55

Yeah,

Chelsea Rosenberg: 19:55

to go ahead.

Michael Hartmann: 19:56

No. I was gonna say I actually it's very intentionally a couple years ago, cuz I had gone through having mentors that sort of. or less I was less thoughtful about how I identified and re we'll call it, recruited them. Cause I wanted, I was asking them for that. And they run their course. That's the other thing I would say is from my experience those tend to have a lifespan that may vary, but I, the last time I intentionally looked pursued a, two to four people with different profiles, including In my case, people were more junior than me which has actually been super valuable as a leader to like when I've dealt with people challenges or stuff like that, where I've, could bounce that off of them. And they provide a perspective that I hadn't, I wouldn't have thought of on my own, or maybe a more senior person wouldn't have thought of either cuz it was, but it was cur

Chelsea Rosenberg: 20:43

yeah. And in addition to that, being a mentor is actually very helpful as well. Cause a lot of people learn by teaching. So offering your experience and background to others as a mentor, it's a mutually beneficial situation.

Michael Hartmann: 20:59

Yeah, I agree. I do that. I do that as well.

Mike Rizzo: 21:01

we're this has come up so many times in our community in general. I know folks have found each other whether through slack, through summer camp or through the pro membership on Mitsy where you're automatically meeting folks and there's. Ways to have all that sort of happen. But I think we can be more like at one point we had attempted to be more intentional about this and the timing of this particular part of the discussion is I think everything happens for a reason. I was just looking last night at a really well defined. Coaching mentorship program through another organization with a leading community in client success. And I'm really thinking about how do we spin that back. We've got some initial documents around it. And how do we formalize this in an effort that is similar to what AJ spun up recently around Hey, for those that are looking for new opportunities or have been laid off and need a resume review, like we've got a whole swath of people ready to help you out in the volunteer sort of side of things. And so I want to, I wanna get back to that and I think touching on. the difficulty with which it is to find a mentor. As you said, Chelsea, it's like super, super hard just think of these different channels as a way to do that. But we will, if anybody out there in the listening audience, like has ideas on how to formalize that program with us. I have some renewed thoughts on this and we're happy to hear your take on it. Cuz at the end of the day we want it to be valuable to the entire community. So share your thought. Please but mentorship's a really big component of career growth, so I'm glad it came.

Michael Hartmann: 22:33

why don't we let's switch gears a little bit. So one of the things you and I talked about when we were planning. This episode is you reference the importance of being able to talk to as ops professionals being able to talk to non-technical people. So why don't we start with, like, when you say that what do you mean by it and why is that an important skill to learn and nurture?

Chelsea Rosenberg: 22:51

Yeah. Yeah. This one's really important. Because mops works. With numerous different teams, right? There's a lot of cross functionality in that role. And you're gonna work with, or partner with, or come across somebody that doesn't like, maybe they understand, like they have a theoretical understanding of marketing ops, but they don't necessarily really understand it. Or maybe, they have this like pie in the sky. Plan for their next campaign. And you're like, dude this platform does not do that. But, and being able to like have that conversation in a, as essentially like being able to speak in layman's terms. But still get your point and your knowledge sharing across it's a skill that has to be honed, right? It's not oh, I'm really good at talking about marketing operations to people that have no idea what the heck I'm talking about. It was not a thing, as something that, that definitely has to be honed. I'm sure you guys, in your illustrious careers, Have come across somebody, that you're working with and you have a conversation with them about the capabilities of the specific map that work has and their eyes just glaze over. They're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. That's wasted time on your side. That's wasted time on their side

Michael Hartmann: 24:00

what

Chelsea Rosenberg: 24:01

and

Michael Hartmann: 24:01

Our listeners need to know that every one of us that we're listening to, that we're all like smirking and smiling. It was like,

Mike Rizzo: 24:08

Yeah,

Michael Hartmann: 24:09

true.

Mike Rizzo: 24:10

they, you mean they don't care about all the little like filter logic and the rules and the nuance of, if you say, and or here

Chelsea Rosenberg: 24:18

What yeah it's definitely needed. And that kind of comes back to, full circle about the whole, you learn when you teach others, that also is a skill that, that you have to practice and a muscle that you have to flex often to

Mike Rizzo: 24:32

Yeah. I like take like action item learn when you teach others. Try to. See if there's anybody in your org, maybe let's start there. Maybe there's someone in your org in a sales role or in a different marketing role where you offer up the time, spin up office hours and say, here are three things in which I'd be willing to share a little bit more information on and see if you can distill that down to a degree that is. Understanding the fundamentals of why this thing matters. And to give you like a real time example of how that might have happened. for me today was someone said we really want to pick your brain on what is the deal with UTMs and attribution and all this stuff. I don't understand fundamentally what this is all about. And I had to go through today and try to like leverage a bunch of documentation and use some guiding sort of principles to say, How does this matter to who? This level matters to leadership, this level matters to a marketing manager. And why does that matter? And try to explain that, if this value doesn't come through, then these repercussions might happen or something like that. But just the fact that I had to sit there and try to break down something as nuanced and fun as UTMs really gave me an opportunity today to figure out like, Like how do you talk to someone that maybe doesn't have the technical understanding of something as potentially complicated as UTMs

Michael Hartmann: 26:00

Yeah.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 26:01

And to do it in a non condescending way.

Mike Rizzo: 26:04

Yeah. At the end of the chat at the end of the chat, they were like, you're a really good teacher. Thank you. And I was like, thanks. I had planned nothing. This is not a tune of my horn. I literally said afterwards, you promise, I didn't mansplain that to. And they were like, no, and I was like okay. I'm glad to hear that cuz you're trying not, you're trying to figure out how do I share this stuff without sounding like a jerk

Chelsea Rosenberg: 26:26

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo: 26:27

Cuz you know, a lot and that's okay. You just, it takes practice though.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 26:31

does. It

Mike Rizzo: 26:31

Actually don't know that much, to be honest.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 26:34

okay.

Michael Hartmann: 26:35

NA Naomi, I'm gonna put you on the spot here a little bit. So I know that you do, you've talked about this on episodes before you do these QBR internally. And I know you've talked about, some of them are like what we just talked about. Are, do you, are you using those as a way to help your team get that kind of experience of teaching like that or you doing it? How's that working

Naomi Liu: 26:54

No. So it's also an opportunity for the team to practice their presentation and, educate like technology adoption and education skills. And the deck is always comprised of, I'll always start and end it, but everybody on the team has their part that they contribute to the deck and they're responsible for presenting their part.

Michael Hartmann: 27:13

Might assume that I'm not good at that. So I'll never be good at that. Which I fundamentally just disagree with.

Naomi Liu: 27:19

I think onboarding new hires, whether it be people that you tend gently work with or even in the sales realm. So sometimes I'll have some of my team members like shadow me where I just do, even when it's people in sales or if they just may work. With the team, but not on a daily basis, like it might be someone in HR or someone in it or, just one of the supporting organizations that we collaborate with not necessarily on a daily basis, but often enough Even just a one hour call where we talk about, what the team does and our team structure and things that we're responsible for. And usually if we don't know the answer who to reach out to, we can generally point people in the right direction. Just having that kind of like call with new hires is super beneficial. And then having. Some like having one of my team members do that actually, because they always say if you can teach what you do, then it, you're a master at your own area of domain. And that's something that I find is super helpful and beneficial kind of brings'em outside of the comfort zone a little bit, because a lot of people always talk about I'm an individual contributor. I don't like, managing and ma going into a management role doesn't mean. Automatically managing people, right? You can be managing processes, right? You can be managing relationships with vendors and contracts and things like that. You may not necessarily have direct reports that roll up into you. But sometimes you don't really know until you do it, like I, early on in my career, I thought I was going to be an individual contributor forever because I just loved that. I loved being in the weeds, putting on my headphones, just being in my own world and problem solving and helping

Michael Hartmann: 28:51

some real satisfaction in accomplishing, completing those things and be able

Naomi Liu: 28:55

for sure. And I still do it like I'm a working manager. I never wanna be too far away from the technology. That, I don't know what I'm necessarily talking about, but. I, I got put into a role where I was managing and I honestly, I realized that it's something that I really enjoy doing. I like mentoring people. I like seeing them grow. And over the years, I've hired and trained countless number of marketing ops folks who have gone on to have their own amazing marketing ops careers, either on the agency side or the. Or the client side. And it's just, it's something that I never like 10 years ago. If you asked me if that would be something I'd be interested in, I'd be like no way Jose. And now it's I can't imagine having a role where I don't mentor people.

Michael Hartmann: 29:35

I'm with you.

Mike Rizzo: 29:35

I don't know who it was on LinkedIn. I wish I could do a little hat tip to them the other day. It was either yesterday or today. I believe my days blur together, but they said if your people aren't leaving you, you're doing a bad job. And that was like how the post started. And I was like, wait, what And and the gist of the post was essentially that right, Naomi, where it's if you're doing a good job managing coaching and mentoring, they should grow. And eventually they're gonna want to take on new challenges. And so if your people aren't leaving you, you're actually doing a bad job as a manager. You want them to reach a point where they want to try for more, or, you have more opportunity for them hopefully, but that's not always the case.

Michael Hartmann: 30:15

Yeah, totally. Yeah. I remember seeing that yesterday too. Alright, so let's let's go on to another area. So the, another thing that kind of in the job search realm. That we've talked about. Chelsea is there are some common challenges that you see out there for people who are job seekers. What are you seeing as the most common sort of challenges that people are running into and then another Corolla, like again, are there, are they different for people who are earlier in their career versus later in their career? In the people management roles, things like that.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 30:46

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What I've been hearing, it's been rumblings for quite a while, but it seems to have amped up in the recent, I Don. What day is it months? We'll say recently it's become more of a thing. And it's talking to people who like apply for a role and then get a call back or maybe they're referred or something. And then they're talking to. This recruiter who has 17 million other roles that they're trying to fill. And they don't know about marketing operations. And they're like looking at your resume. I see here that you worked in Pardot, but we are on, Eloqua or Oracle or what name, any other marketing operations platform. And they're like, so you don't have the experience that we need. And that. Great. Oh, that makes me so mad. Because it's, as a candidate, you then feel like you're like wait dude, you feel like you're having to defend yourself in this really weird way, but the biggest hurdle is just recruiters and even some hiring managers, right? They don't understand. The philosophy around marketing operations, the, learning a new platform. Obviously there's nuances and you guys can tell me all about'em, but obviously there's nuances, but learning, I knew. Naming thing, right? Or or in this tool it's called a, and in this tool it's called B like learning that it's called B that what I'm trying to get at is that this the mindset and the skill to B successful in marketing operations can be utilized by any marketing automation tool in my perspective, because, and you guys tell me if I'm wrong, right. Those skills are transferable across different maps. And I've been hearing a lot of people, like I applied for this job and they said that I didn't qualify because blah, blah, blah. And then they're not given another chance.

Mike Rizzo: 32:33

Yeah. I think all things, it depends. I am a big advocate for your skills. and your curiosity to go learn these tools and having an understand an understanding of object oriented relationships in a database structure, the way that maps work and the way that data ties together absolutely can help you jump into other tools. Having been a user of Pardot, HubSpot, and Marketo and act on I see a lot of relationships between all those things. However, your palette and desire to want to go pick up the nuances of the tools, cuz they are particular in their own particular way. They can make you a platform expert in a way that is. Very different than somebody who's scratched at the surface level of what the capabilities are. And so the, it depends piece isn't about is your skill transferable it's are you ready and willing to learn? And, or the organization who's looking for that talent able to tolerate a little bit of a slightly steeper learning curve for someone who's got the capabilities to pick it up quickly. But needs the time to go absorb it. If they need to move a little faster. That's usually where you run into the problem is yeah, but we need somebody yesterday. And that's the market that we're seeing right now is everybody's we need someone yesterday and I, I would argue to your point skills are transferable slow down to speed up and just hire the right people who are passionate and hungry to take on the challenge. Cuz if you give somebody that chance to go learn, maybe they're moving from part out to Marketo or the other way around. If you give them the chance to do that, they might stick with you for longer. Just cuz you know, they're like, cool. You gave me a great career learning opportunity and this is an interesting company. So anyway, that's my thoughts on it.

Michael Hartmann: 34:28

Yep. I think we're all on the Naomi is, can speak for herself, but I think we're all on same page on this one that I think that it depends is probably the right answer in my book.

Mike Rizzo: 34:39

yeah. I don't know my message though, to the hiring managers out there and those recruiters like. Try to figure out if there's a pallet in the organization for that slow down to speed up mental like method, right? Try to gauge the level of interest of, can we bring somebody in? Who's just got a little bit of a different background, but understand fundamentally they can pick it up. I hope more and more of that happens cuz it's. It forces the market to feel like they have to be like platform specific. 15 years ago when I like strategically quote unquote, I'm doing air quotes for all the listeners strategically decided not to be a Salesforce admin it was because I didn't want to quote unquote, get stuck in the ecosystem of Salesforce. And still to this day, like there is so much opportunity in that ecosystem like that probably would've been a wonderful career decision. but

Michael Hartmann: 35:33

but I think this goes back to. knowing yourself. And what do you wanna do? And although that may have been maybe lucrative in some ways it may not have been got you. Probably, almost certainly would not have gotten you to where you are today.

Mike Rizzo: 35:45

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Almost certainly.

Michael Hartmann: 35:47

Okay. I know we're we're running a little bit short on time, but I do want to cover one thing for sure, with you Chelsea. And that is something that I've. I think our certainly the community is vocal about. And I know part of it I'm pretty vocal about which is I'll put both related to compensation and job levels. I think there's sometimes a lack of transparency, which is what I think the community in general is really itching for. And I think part of that is because there's a lack of consistency that is out there. So I think if you. Again, this goes to back to, I think the lack of real market data for recruiters on what the real market is like. So do you see that as still an ongoing issue? Do you see any hope that there's gonna be improvements in that?

Chelsea Rosenberg: 36:36

In terms of the market data I don't know I would like there to be improvements there cuz you know, when I'm trying to have conversations with, hiring managers about or HR teams about where to put the salary ban for that role it is really hard, I've got my finger on the pulse and I feel like I know where, what that looks like, but I can't, it's not like I go online and I'm like, okay. So here's the proof about why I think that, it's. It is frustratingly. not transparent. And I hope that will change. And it may, cuz like with Colorado and New York and California, having salaries and job postings, I think that is going to, that's a wealth of data, right? Like just go to indeed or wherever, and look for job postings in Colorado for marketing operations. And you're gonna see ranges from. Very low to like super freaking high. So that right now it's all over the place, but I think eventually it will. It will even out and we will be able to find, useful data around that. And I think part of it too, is like talking about salary is still really taboo, which is unfortunate. It's really unfortunate. I think I think we should just be open about it, right? We shouldn't, it's not something to be embarrassed about, but it is, it will take some time for that to become less taboo and more people are talking. But, have conversations with your coworkers, be like, this is a really awkward conversation. And I'm gonna ask you a question that sounds super personal and weird, what are you currently making in your role? And, what did you make two years ago? What did you make before you got that title? And whatnot, and just, utilizing the resources around you for that type of thing. When you're trying to figure out what your, when you're trying to figure out what your worth is, which. It was gross to say out loud, but cuz you are not your job, but anyway, who it is fr it is still very cloudy. And I very much look forward to, when it's not, but I think in the meantime, while we're twiddling our thumbs and waiting for, an entire societal change in the meantime, don't be afraid when you're on conversation. When on calls or meetings with recruiters, our hiring managers, don't be afraid to ask upfront, even if it's, you're replying to a LinkedIn message or an email, don't be afraid to ask upfront what the salary. Band or ranges. And there's ways you can cuz there's a lot of fear of oh then they're just gonna think, all I want is money. There's ways to do it where you don't sound, like a money hungry insert negative thing here. And it's really all about, expressing gratitude. So like for example, you could be like, Hey, thanks so much for reaching out and sharing this role with me. I really appreciate the time that it took to, find me and connect. Speaking of time, I, I wanna be very cognizant and aware and respectful of your time. Could, do you mind sharing the salary range for this role? I don't wanna take up any year over time. Out of what I'm looking for or something, don't be afraid to do that. And if they're weird and shady about telling you that is also consider yeah. Consider that a bullet dodged But yeah, just, just, it's like advocating for yourself, right? Because the market right now is so weird and salaries are all over the place and it's hard to just define what the correct range for you. Your and other people's roles are definitely advocate for yourself and don't be embarrassed or afraid to talk about it, honestly.

Michael Hartmann: 39:55

Yeah I think the, my, my one point on this, I would say is what you just described is there's ways to ask the question that are. Won't come across as just offensive and rude and all that. I think there's reasonable ways to do it. And

Chelsea Rosenberg: 40:08

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann: 40:09

I don't think you should feel bad about it, even if it's an awkward, uncomfortable thing to do.

Mike Rizzo: 40:14

Really proud of the data that we're getting on this in our state of the Mopro research. Like I pulled it up just to look at it right now. We'll publish it in the next couple weeks here from this recording date. But I like we've. Sliced it in a few different ways. So we're looking at years of experience, we're also looking at it in terms of company size, so that we can try to give organizations a flavor of what you might expect, depending on, maybe your budgetary sort of constraints. If you're a, under a 100 employee organization with a marketing ops person, you only have it, it doesn't change what their value is. It just changes what you're actually capable of paying. And some people are willing to take on learning experiences for startups and that's okay. But we try to present that data in a couple different ways to make that stuff more accessible in the market. And then, what's coming along with this state of the Mopro research this year is. Free job guide templates for hiring managers to understand really what it looks like to write for those roles from management up to even executive director plus roles. And those were all worked on, think Mr. Hartman helped us out with those Naomi looked at'em about like 10 other folks helped us try to figure out what those those templates might look like. And so I'm particularly excited. This community's ability to set some of those standards, as well, as, as we wait twiddling our thumbs for the market to shift on standardizing on salary transparency at least this can be a guide for the market to baseline against.

Michael Hartmann: 41:41

Yeah, I think it's great. All right. So Chelsea. Let's get it down to some, maybe some brass tacks here. So if people are listening and are like, I'm ready to move, I wanna start looking for the next thing. Or I'm in the middle of it. What are some best practice or, suggestions for how they should, where you think they'll get the most out of that and find something that best fits them faster.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 42:03

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, if you're in the throes of a job search, maybe you got laid off or, you're ready to. Try something new. One thing I would remember is that, job searching is it's a numbers game. And it's interesting too, cuz recruiting is also a numbers game. So there's a lot of numbers in this space. But yeah, job search is a numbers game. And it's, and I don't mean go and apply to a hundred jobs. That's do it if you want to, but it's not gonna, it's not gonna yield much return. When I say, it's a numbers game, Again, back to networking, right? Reaching out to, to reaching out to folks who are, like I said, doing what, the job that you're doing. Helping them understand that, you are really passionate about this space. Cuz then when a job does come open, who are they gonna think of first when you know, we're like, Hey, we're open to referrals. They're gonna think of you. So it really just, is talk to as many people as you can learn as much as you can as not quickly, but as robustly, as you can, as the opportunity opportunities arise. For sure. And I think, even if you're. Either in the, in right in the middle of it or just, just starting or even just considering it. One thing that's really important. And I'm gonna harp on this all the time is figure out again your why figure out your values. And when you are interviewing and doing these informational, meetings and calls and such with folks. You're networking with just be, remember to be authentic. And I know that's be yourself, like it's cheesy and it's cliche and it's hard to do, but being authentic is really important. And because one, if you're not, you're gonna get stuck in a job where you have to pretend to be somebody you're not, which is exhausting and nobody fricking wants that. And two, you. being yourself is, it's like bringing your whole self to, to work, right? You want to be in a role like that. And the only way you're gonna do that is if you do that, it's not like you can like interview with somebody and be this like buttoned up and stuff. You guy, and then you come in and you're like, what's up, dude? Like you can. Shift like that. So just be yourself from the get, go know your value and the skills that you have. And what's important to you, your values, your why, and go out there and make it happen. And captain.

Michael Hartmann: 44:09

we go.

Mike Rizzo: 44:11

I love that advice just for all the listeners on this one, Chelsea is gonna be involved in the community. So I will shamelessly plug for her. You will see a bit more of us doing some work together. To help enable this group. We have another coach that's gonna help us. You all probably know her name's HANA. And so there's gonna be more we're working on this. And so Chelsea, I appreciate you taking the time to share all this stuff. Between the state of the Mo research, the job guide templates, folks like yourself. Volunteer mentors and volunteers that are offering, all kinds of different things in terms of resume, review and programs started by our community. This is what it's all about. So I'm just like grinning ear to ear, like thrilled to, to hear this all over. And yeah. If any of you are looking for new roles, like just keep thinking of this community, cuz there's gonna be a lot of resources coming your way to help you out.

Michael Hartmann: 45:03

Awesome. So Chelsea, this has been really fun. And I think thought provoking and interesting. And hopefully our audience will be interested if they wanted to follow up with you on anything from this, or just keep keep track of what you're doing and all that. What's the best way for them to do that.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 45:19

Yeah, so I live and breathe LinkedIn. So that's a good place to connect with me. I also have my handy Dan website that I just spun up and feel really weird about talking about, but it's. Sprout bright consulting.com. And you can learn about like my philosophy around coaching both in the mops and the non mops space. But yeah, I really appreciate you guys bringing me on and I'm super excited to. To continue my journey in the, marketing ops space and help and watch people flourish and grow. That was so cheesy. That was so cheesy.

Michael Hartmann: 45:55

That's

Mike Rizzo: 45:56

No, I love it.

Chelsea Rosenberg: 45:57

but

Michael Hartmann: 45:57

is real,

Chelsea Rosenberg: 45:59

It is real.

Michael Hartmann: 46:00

it

Mike Rizzo: 46:00

authentic self

Michael Hartmann: 46:01

Yes. Bring your authentic self. thank you. Chelsea, thank you. And Naomi and Mike for once again, helping through us through these episodes, thanks to all our listeners out there for continuing to support us and provide us such great ideas. So if you have an idea for a topic or a guest, or you wanna be a guest, reach out to us through slack, the marketing ops.com website. If you set up, if you haven't set up your profile there, you can do that there in that space, you can. Put in a request to be a guest. And we'll follow up with you. So until next time, thanks to everybody. And bye.

Mike Rizzo: 46:37

They

Chelsea Rosenberg: 46:39

I.