Naomi Liu 0:23

Welcome to another episode of OpsCast by the Mo Pros, powered by marketingops.com. I am Naomi Liu, and today I am not joined by my co-host, Mike Rizzo and Michael Hartmann because today's episode is a Woman's takeover episode, and I am joined by my lovely guest, Vivian Chan, case, Goranson and Leah Miranda, please say,

Vivian Chan 0:45

Hello?

Leah Miranda 0:46

Hey everyone.

Naomi Liu 0:47

Before we get started, I wanted to take a minute to introduce my guests. Um, Kaycn is a results-oriented marketer with a background in marketing, operations, growth, and business strategies. She also has over 13 years of B2B experience across several areas of marketing, from social media to paid search and life cycle to lead scoring. Her passions are around optimizing the MarTech stack lead processes and marketing analytics. Vivian Chan is actually a second time POD podcast guest, but for those of you who don't know her, she is an entrepreneur and senior technology executive leader who has been involved in marketing and partner channels for three very different waves of disruptive technologies, those being analytics, cloud and ar. She has been named one of Global Mills 2021 best executives and brings more than 20 years of experience scaling companies. She's currently leading global integrated campaigns for operational excellence at ServiceNow. And last but not least, Leah Miranda is passionate about using technology to meet people where they are, and has garnered over a decade of lifecycle marketing experience, including startups, fortune 500 companies, and most recently leading the lifecycle team at sap. When she's not coding emails or building flowcharts, you can find Leah in Nashville, Tennessee drinking coffee and reading a book with her wife and well, dog ladies, thank you for joining us today and I'm excited to chat with you all. That was definitely a mouthful. Um, super impressed with, you know, all of, um, the compliments, accomplishments that all of you have had so far in your career. And,

Vivian Chan 2:25

so

Naomi Liu 2:26

jumping right into things, uh, when we were talking about recording this woman's takeover episode and what topic or hook we wanted to shape this recording around, an idea that came up was women and our superpowers. Now, I don't know about you. But no superhero story comes without the origin story. So I'd like to ask all of you, what is your origin story and subsequent superpower? Uh, Vivian, I'm gonna pick on you for this because you were kind of the one who originally came up with this, with this hook. So would love to hear your, your origin story and superpower

Vivian Chan 3:01

Sure. Um, yeah, my, I would say the theme of my. Story is really around this notion around having a non-linear career. Um, if I look at, you know, the last 20 years of my career, it's been really guided by my curiosity. I started my career as a, as a co-op student in a startup company, um, that subsequently scaled after three acquisitions into a. Enterprise software company, uh, called sap. And so ended up doing a number of years in in from scale up to, to corporate.

Naomi Liu 3:36

That was business objects, right? Bob,

Vivian Chan 3:38

that, yeah, that was, it went from crystal decisions, business objects to sap and um, every three to six months we had a different company. And so that was one of the, the big educations of my career. Um, but after about 14 years of it, I, I got kind of tired of it. I was like not excited about marketing. I realized that I needed to take a tech sabbatical and ended up, um, moving to London to volunteer for a climate change organization for, um, a couple of months, um, to learn a little bit more about social impact causes and whatnot. Um, then ended up, um, in higher education. I ended up at my alma mater. Uh, starting a innovation initiative there. Then dived into the world of startups, starting up my own ar vr company with a co-founder and now I'm back in corporate again at ServiceNow. So it really kind of goes full circle. And so I would say my origin story is really around one where I've continued to follow my curiosity and my personal priorities that change from time to. Um, in terms of superpower, um, I would say that, um, my husband always says that, um, you know, from his observation, he, he says that I'm able to make friends via human connection. And so, um, I think the ability to find the thing that we have in common is something that, um, I like to do. And, uh, another sort of fun fact is I'm always asking,

Naomi Liu 5:10

That's awesome. I, so for those of you who don't know, like Vivian and I have known each other for quite a long time, I wanna say a decade.

Vivian Chan 5:16

Yeah.

Naomi Liu 5:17

a decade, and something that's always impressed me about you is that I feel like you are somebody who's an excellent listener and you're always asking, you know, more information, you ask the hard questions. Like I just really, I always, every time we connect and we catch up, I always just kind of leave feeling like super fresh. I'm like, wow, you know, that's a different take that I've, you know, I've never, I've never seen, um, or heard of or thought of things that way, and so I. I wanted to shout you up because I really enjoy, you know, letting, I just wanna let you know that I really enjoy having, you know, picking your brain and having those types

Vivian Chan 5:47

Thanks, Naomi. Yeah, no, I, um, I've, I've learned to be a better listener. I have to tell you that that didn't come naturally. I, I really had to learn over time how to, how to do that. So thank you for that. I, I really appreciate it. Okay,

Naomi Liu 6:00

So I want to pick on Leah next. Leah would love to hear your origin story and, uh, what your superhero is. Superhero power is rather.

Leah Miranda 6:11

exactly. So, uh, I would say like all heroes, my origin story involves a struggle, you know, the world myself. Okay, so it's not really that dramatic. But as a 20 year old with student loans, it definitely felt that dramatic. Uh, I actually went to school to be a social studies teacher, uh, and you might be wondering why am I on a MOS Pro uh, podcast? But here we. And so I, I was a social studies teacher for a while and then, you know, like in any good hero story, the villain shows up for me. That was 2008, and specifically the economy. And I was suddenly faced with, oh no, I need to get another job. Uh, so I temp at a lot of different places and, uh, I figured marketing seemed like fun. They always seemed like the cool kids. Whenever I, I talk to, My, uh, fellow, uh, colleagues, uh, and so finally, um, Michelle l I'm gonna shout you out. Uh, took a chance on me not having a marketing background and gave me a position in an event marketing role, and I absolutely love it. I fell in love with, uh, marketing and it was, it was a really great time. From there, uh, my career has expanded and I've been able to work with a couple of different startups, which I think was really fun. Um, especially being young in my career that I was able to, with all startups, you get to wear many different hats and I really took advantage of that. So I was able to sit in content. I did a little stint and paid email marketing life cycle. And eventually kind of wound up in marketing ops and life cycles, kind of where I, um, ended up really truly, I think, thriving, uh, and really loving what I do. So with that, I think, um, that journey, my, my superpower, I would have to say is probably my humor. And while I think I can tell like a really great dad joke, I think it goes beyond just being able to crack a joke or being, you know, quote unquote. I've also realized I've set myself up to be humorous in this podcast. So just, you know, manage one's

Naomi Liu 8:11

I mean, I, I feel like I wanna ask you what your favorite dad joke is, but you know, I don't wanna put you on the spot there, right?

Leah Miranda 8:17

um, yeah. Yeah. Uh, let's see. Uh, favorite dad joke. Um, yeah, I think I'd have to say, uh, in my early twenties I was addicted to the hokey pokey. Um, but I've turned myself.

Naomi Liu 8:32

Oh my gosh.

Leah Miranda 8:34

horrible, but I love a good dad joke.

Naomi Liu 8:37

Oh my

Leah Miranda 8:38

Um, I know there's someone out there that also appreciates this. Um, so yeah, so it, it goes beyond being able to be quote unquote funny. Humor for me, uh, allows me to laugh. It helps me bring joy into my work, uh, to the people that I work with. It opens up a human side to business and it allows for you to have better connections, better interactions, and really create better experiences within the workplace.

Naomi Liu 9:05

I love that. I, I think that's so important because I feel like sometimes, especially in the work that we do, it can get quite cumbersome and technical and super serious and, you know, the ability to find humor in it, and also taking a step back and being like, guys, okay, we're not curing cancer. This is not like covid vaccine trials. Like this is, you know, it's all still very important. But I think, um, yeah, definitely finding the humor in that, especially when you're, you know, problem solving. Doing things with, um, like mind sharing with coworkers and, you know, you're putting your heads together and you're wanting to approach a problem. I'm curious, like, do you have an example of, um, uh, using humor in a workplace environment where, you know, you're working a group environment or you're trying to solve a problem? Like do you have a example for that?

Leah Miranda 9:54

Um, yeah, I think what's, what's great about humor is, uh, I like to joke. It's not Maybelline, you know, she's not born with it. It's definitely a muscle that anyone can develop. And so for me, I think it's being able to just to be able to laugh at yourself. A lot of what we do can be trial and error. Uh, we make mistakes along the way. And I think, um, having that, that humor, that joy kind of, that, that comfort to say, Hey, I've made a mistake and let's all learn from it, um, is, is one thing that I really enjoy. Uh, the other thing too is just, it's nice to set the tone. I think humor can sometimes have like a darker. To it. So, you know, you don't want it to turn into your crypto tonight just to, to keep that superhero theme going. Uh, so, you know, I think if humor, if you're using that to bring joy and openness into your work environment and to kind of, you know, be able to laugh at yourself, um, is, is kind of how I bring it and how it, uh, personifies in my work life.

Naomi Liu 10:50

definitely. I love that. And so, kind of piggybacking off of that and staying on the topic of problem solving and, and a woman's approach, I'd love to hear from you, Caseon, like what are, what do you feel are some differences between the way women approach problem solving in the work?

Kacyn Goranson 11:06

Yeah, so I'm gonna definitely preface this with this as a total, total generalization. So wanna acknowledge there are exceptions, some women. Tend to approach problems like men, and some men tend to approach problems like women. Um, but I think Leah actually kind of hit on it with her, her humor, comment, and even the human side to business. I think generally speaking, men tend to look at any problems. What's the short. Path. What's the, the quickest way to get to write or fixed or whatever The result we're trying to get is where women tend to partially because just the way our brains work, we can multitask. We are literally genetically wired to multitask where men cannot. Multitask as well. We see the forest, we don't just see the single tree. So we're able to think through the people angle and how do we best get there? Who are the people who can get us there? Even, is it a skill set? Is it something personally that they've experienced before? We pull all of that in instead of just this person moves quicker, where this person has always got me, you know, through the hard times in business. I'm gonna trust. Women can tend to think of who's gonna get us there the best way, the quickest, the most efficient way, but without taking shortcuts or just necessarily going straight through the forest, but what's the best way and really solve that problem. So basically I think, I think women are just really good multitaskers, but they remember the human.

Naomi Liu 12:45

Yeah. I love that. I, I feel, I, I totally agree with and resonate with everything that you've. That, and I just, I feel like this is a good segue into the next question, which is, um, female leaders and role models that we look up to. And before I, you know, call on Vivian, I'm gonna call on you, but before I kind of call on, uh, you, I, I also wanna share, you know, what is a female leader role model that I look up to, uh, personally, I'm a huge fan of, Sandy Learner, uh, for those of you who don't know who she is, she was a co-founder of a company. You might know Cisco, and when she left Cisco, she went on to start. A cosmetics company. Um, you might have heard of it, urban Decay. It's kind of in all of the, it's in Sephoras in all of the department stores. It's quite a drastic change from Cisco to Urban Decay. But, you know, when she sold Urban Decay to, um, I believe it was the Louis Vuitton group, um, she then started a sustainable organic, Agriculture farm in Virginia, and she's an inspiration to me, not only as a woman in tech, but also as a woman in business. Right? You know, she was fired from the company that she founded Cisco, but went on to reinvent herself. Um, I'm super impressed by her resiliency and her ability to adapt. Um, it's an inspiration to me and something that I really look f um, really look up to. So, That being said, uh, Vivian, you're also somebody I actually really look up to. You know, when we first met, I think I was like a little bit in awe of you. I was like, wow, there's this like woman who has everything, all her shit together and, you know, I'd love to be her friend and like love to learn more and pick her brain. So, um, I'd love to hear from you. Who do you, uh, see as a female leader role? Mo role model, and who do you look up to?

Vivian Chan 14:24

yeah, I, I just think that we learn from. Our bosses and we learn from our peers. And so I think in so many ways it's, it's learning through observation and learning, through collaboration and, and sort of two women stand out, uh, quite a bit for me. Um, Carolyn Cox, who now runs America's Marketing and at ServiceNow, but we know we worked together in two other companies prior. She really set the tone around, uh, being a leader that drives. Um, you know, she gets her, she knows her shit and she's very outcomes oriented and inefficient, and she didn't feel like, you know, she would need to talk or sound smart or eloquent. She, what she had to do was about impact. And so I really loved this no BS approach to, to driving value. And so I've kind of kept that model in my whole career. I'm here to create impact, um, not to look good, but to, to make the right decisions for the organization. And the second role model that I've had is, is Joy Johnson, um, from Simon Fraser University. She's from the higher education sector. Um, she's now the president of, of the university. She was someone who had this incredible ability to make everyone feel seen and heard. And so when she would talk to the group, she really took time to listen. But when she spoke, she really had the final word and, and. Uh, a sense of bringing it all together. And so, again, this sort of, um, very co-creative approach was, was something that, um, I took from her. So I think we take a little bit from, from different people at different times, whether they're your boss, um, or your peers.

Naomi Liu 16:04

I totally agree, and I'm jotting these people down so I can look them up later after this recording. Um, Leah, I'd love to hear from you as well, any female leaders or role models you look up to.

Leah Miranda 16:15

Um, yeah. So, uh, this, this is gonna sound super lame, but I think Case and Case, uh, can attest to this, but, uh, the person I really look up to is, is my. Name's Taryn Driggers. Uh, and she's uh, a c-suite leader in, in healthcare. And the reason I look up to her is because she was one of the first female leaders that I had exposure to. I had a lot of male bosses kind of as I was coming up in my career that really led with empathy. And that, that just was in really like stark contrast to the leaders that I had been exposed to. And it was something that, you know, uh, I had the opportunity, we worked together for a short stint and I sat in on a meeting with her and just was like in awe of like, oh, this is a new way you can interact with your, Your team and, and, and lead with this, this underlying of empathy. And so, um, yeah, it's just, it's something that, uh, a skill set that I, I identified with and something she instills in her team as she helps develop future healthcare leaders. Um, so yeah. Um, I think. Think. Yeah, I think for me it's just identifying those women in, um, it, it can be as simple as just those little interactions. You know, I'm in awe of the, the women on this, this podcast. Um, you know, you all bring such a, an amazing perspective and experience and, you know, I think it's, it's key to. To take those interactions and say, okay, you know, dissect them a bit. Like, why was that meaningful to me? Like what did they do? You know, Vivian was talking about did they make that connection? And I think that's where empathy comes in. You put yourself in that person's shoes and you say, Okay. What you're telling me is very important to you right now, and it's gonna be important to me as a leader. Uh, and, you know, you, you use that to build trust with your team. So, so yeah. So I think, like I said, my wife and then, um, I just try to, if I see a positive behavior or positive interaction, I try to say, how can I, um, bring that into my own leadership style?

Naomi Liu 18:19

They're all layers, right? I think we, we um, we, we definitely learn from the people that are around us and the people that, you know, report to us or manage us directly, and it's just something that over time, it's definitely a learning experience. I love that. Um, Kason would love to hear from you, uh, female leader role model you look up to.

Kacyn Goranson 18:37

So it would be a previous CMO of mine. Her name's Kerin. Um, she was the only. Female, not only senior executive on the C-suite, but I would say VP or hire at this company, traditional financial services company. She was never once intimidated to be the only female. She showed up to the table whether she had a chair or whether she had to, you know, stand in the room. She was not afraid to turn that into a standing desk, but she really earned her spot. But she looked out at the rest of the team and helped us earn our chairs too, or at least our spot in the room. Um, and that was not just for women. She helped, she helped the guys on the team, kind of how do you get into that room as well? So now she owns her own business, which so just continues to inspire me that she had her own faith to go do her own thing.

Naomi Liu 19:35

Yeah, I love that. So something that I am getting the sense of with a lot of the female leaders or role models that you all look up to is that they're quite, um, they're quite powerful women in terms of being very high up in the companies and the organizations that they're in. Um, and. That kind of piggybacks into the next question around female thought leadership. So I would love to hear from you, Vivian, why you feel that female thought leadership is so important, um, in, you know, the working world, corporate life. Would love to hear your thoughts on

Vivian Chan 20:05

yeah, I think hearing from female leaders on their experiences I think are really important because I think sometimes the challenges that we experience on how we're perceived seeing how people relate to us, um, can be. Gender and, and even race, right? There's dimensions on, on, on perception. Um, there's unconscious bias and it's, it's a real thing. And so being able to kind of share how we've, um, overcome that, how we've worked through that, um, I think is important. You know, as, as an example, you know, by, by virtue of podcasts like this, that where we share what's working, what's not, I, I think we learn through that. Um, as an example, just very recently actually, I was just at a Christmas party. Um, I often get people assuming that I'm much younger than I am, and so by default they're already judging my level of knowledge and whatnot. And so it's something that I've had to work through throughout my whole career. And so instead of letting it define me, I, I think, you know, you kind of ha you, you're aware. That, that bias exists and you need to continue to just show up in a way that demonstrates your skills and experiences. I'm always aware of that, but with that said, I show up not trying to prove my age, but to, you know, but try to bring my experience to the table. And so, um, that comes in the forms of asking good questions, um, speaking up when I need to, um, but not always speaking up for the sake of speaking up. And, um, how I priorit. What I do. So I think how we show up, um, ultimately manifests in how people see us over time. But in the beginning, these first impressions, um, you know, start us off on a, on a different playing field. So,

Naomi Liu 21:50

Yeah, I think, um, I think for all of us on this, on this recording, um, some of the things that you've just said, especially around the assumptions that are. And the judgment before people even really get to know you. You've put it in a way that, um, is much more eloquent than I could have ever said. Um, it kind of ties into feelings for myself at least, of imposter syndrome. Right. So, um, I would love to hear from, uh, Yulia about do you ever feel, especially in, uh, the working environment imposter syndrome, what does that look like to you? Um, how do you combat that? Um, you know, is it something you still struggle with or what does that look.

Leah Miranda 22:29

Yeah, lots of feelings on this. So I have proudly suffered imposter syndrome at every single job role that I've ever had, and I, I honestly think that it will never matter how many years I have under my belt or experience. I think I'll imposter syndrome will always be there. And for me, that's not such a bad thing. Um, I try to use, again, humor and reframing to combat those feelings. Uh, for example, I like to put a name to my imposter syndrome. Uh, I affectionately call her Beatrice, and I know sounds ridiculous, but. If

Naomi Liu 23:04

I love that actually. That's

Leah Miranda 23:05

ha Yeah, it's great. Uh, if you can't stop having those imposter thoughts because you, you can't, you can't really control your thoughts, say pop up when you least expect them. And so by naming it instead of internalizing it, uh, I'm able to combat those thoughts. And so it, it usually sounds like something like this. So like I just started, um, at Zapier. Fantastic company. Super excited about the job, but Beatrice popped up and it's like, mm, are you sure you're gonna be good at this? I don't know if you've ever really done this type of job before. You're probably gonna fail, and they're gonna know. And so it's like, okay, like, yes, Beatrice, you're right in pointing out that I haven't done this type of job before, but let's be real. Like they wouldn't have hired me if they didn't think I was qualified, or if I didn't have transferable skills. By doing that, I've said, okay, I've acknowledged the thought, I haven't internalized it. And then I've provided my own rational evidence to say, well, no, I went through several interviews. I gave a presentation. Like they wouldn't have hired me if they didn't think I could do the job. Uh, so yeah, that's that for me, that's what imposter syndrome feels like. And like I said, I, I don't think it goes away for anybody. And if it does, please shout out. Let me know how you can stop those. But if you can't, this is just one way I combat.

Naomi Liu 24:23

Um, a good friend of mine who's a clinical psychologist, she said that imposter syndrome usually stems from the fact that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. And when she said that, I kind of had a bit of a light bulb moment, I'm like, that is so true. You know that for me. She said that, she told me this a couple years ago, and you know, the, when I, when I heard her say that, I was like, yeah, I definitely feel that. Like the more I know, the more. Wow. There's actually so much. I don't know when people are gonna realize that there's a lot, I don't know, as opposed to focusing on the fact that like, there's actually still even more that you do know too. Right. Um, Casey, I would love to hear from you, imposter syndrome, thoughts. How do you combat it? What does that look like for you?

Kacyn Goranson 25:01

Well, first of all, I've never heard that comment about. The more you know, the more you realize you

Naomi Liu 25:07

Mm-hmm.

Kacyn Goranson 25:08

So many light bulbs just went off.

Naomi Liu 25:09

Right. Yes.

Kacyn Goranson 25:11

thanks for giving me a lot to think about later today. Um, but no, I think imposter syndrome's a hundred percent real. Whatever name you wanna call it. I, I usually say honestly, until Leah's point and her, her dear friend, Beatrice, when you take a new role or opportunity or you start something, I have a mo. We all have a few moments, especially I, I feel like week two to four you have a lot of moments of, oh my God, what did I just do? I try to remind myself, and I try to remind my friends and coworkers when they do something new as well, if it doesn't scare the life out of. It probably wasn't the right opportunity for you because you never, even if it's a lateral move, you never want to take another step that isn't teaching you or challenging you something. So if it's not scary and it doesn't give you those imposter syndrome moments, it was the wrong step cuz you already know you can do it. Um, but I think some things that I've recently. Or that it's a hundred percent pervasive. And it is so real and it happens in a lot of different ways. And it's not something you just stifle down and it's not something, just a new opportunity or a new role. And honestly, it's not even just at work or in your career. It happens in social situations. It happens when you move cross country like anything there. Um, I have friends who are working moms, right? When they go on maternity leave or right when they come back, it creeps back. single women, they have it. When they're in conversations with working moms, they're like, Ugh, well, what do I have to compete to this conversation? Am I good enough if there's, if they're able to, you know, have a family and work and do this? So it comes up. I even worked with a, a gentleman recently, which we never talk about men having imposter syndrome. He was man enough to admit as candidly the youngest in the. He had Impost syndrome sitting in a room with a lot of people with much more experience. So I think imposter syndrome is just real and we just need to own it.

Naomi Liu 27:13

Yeah, I definitely agree and, and just wanted to thank all of you for your perspectives and thoughts and feelings around that. Um, as kind of a wrap up to this recording, I also wanted to end on hearing about some highlights of all of your careers. So I'm just gonna start with you, Vivian. Um, would love to hear what are some maybe top two or three highlights that you've had in your career so far, and what does that look?

Vivian Chan 27:39

yeah, the first one that comes to mind, and again, it parlays what ca, you know, Cason was talking about, but overcoming your fears and being scared is it can be a good thing. Um, you know, when I realized that I could be an entrepreneur, that I wasn't just. You know, a corporate executive that I could do other things in my life that were unknown and scary and undone before for me. And that, um, by diving into something new and fresh, um, I would learn new things. Um, you know, when I was able to finally kind of get. Get, you know, you figure it out in, in life. You just kind of figure out, and over time as an entrepreneur, you just learn to figure it out. The skills that you had in your previous jobs or roles on how to figure out how. Solve a problem, create an opportunity. Those apply in, in any kind of role industry or function that you're in. And so when I, when I realized that, that gave me so much freedom to say, you know what, I, I can be anything I want. I give my permission, myself permission, um, to be anything that I want. So I think I would say that would be probably a highlight of my career now. And, and, you know, and I take that with me in each job that.

Naomi Liu 28:48

Amazing. I love that. Thank you. Um, Leah, what about.

Leah Miranda 28:55

Yeah. So, um, in my career, a couple highlights. Uh, one, um, and this kind of feeds into that imposter syndrome we were talking about. Uh, one of the big things that. Wanted to do in my career was start speaking at events, being on podcasts. Um, and so this is a career highlight for me. Um, I've had the, the pleasure to speak, um, at Litmus this last year, and that was a kind of a three year goal that I had. Uh, and Kason was great. She was, uh, incredibly supportive and helped me walk through my presentation, gave me some really great. And so, so yeah, I think, uh, for me, putting myself out there just a little bit more, even though I've got an extroverted personality, uh, it felt scary to say, here's some knowledge that I might have and you might find it useful too. Um, so that was definitely, uh, a career highlight. And then, um, the other one is, uh, seeing. Seeing team members, um, go on to bigger and greater things. Uh, I think being a leader and being a people manager, it has been so rewarding to help. Others, uh, both, uh, you know, men and women, um, non-binary people, uh, you know, develop their skills and, you know, have an impact on their life and their career. Um, and, you know, help them get that, that next promotion. And, you know, I kind of always joke with every teammate that I've, I've helped manage of like, you know, I hope to be, I hope you're my boss one day. Uh, I hope you can, um, ascend. Uh, so that's been I think probably one of the most fulfilling things. About my career is being able to, to manage people and, and them having the, the grace and support of when I do have a blunder every now and then that they're, they're open with that feedback and help me grow as well.

Naomi Liu 30:37

I love hearing that about women, supporting women especially, and just like helping to lift each other up in, in, uh, you know, the corporate world for sure. Uh, Casey, what about you?

Kacyn Goranson 30:47

Well, I feel like now I'm just piggybacking on Leah's last answer. Um, but I think it's really managing people and it's beyond just at this one job, I've always looked at management as it's my role as a people manager to get them wherever they're trying to go and not necessarily at that company, but in their career. And I think there, there are a few. I'm gonna try not to give out too many details and make Leah laugh cuz full disclosure, she was there for many of these. Um, but there was, there was a period where we were reorging at a previous company and. Some men were trying to put two specific coworkers into places on the team where I knew they would almost immediately turn in their notice. But because I knew where they were trying to go in their career, how they worked, things that they liked and disliked about their role was kind of able to push really hard on putting them into different places on that org chart. Um, they ended up staying for quite a while and really thriving in those roles and. The second one that comes to mind that's around the same vein is even after leaving various companies, staying in touch with some of those previous coworkers, whether they were, you know, managers, peers. Or even reports, but helping them get where they're trying to go as they find new roles, as they're having challenging conversations with bosses or peers or even salary negotiations, whatever it is. But I think it means a lot to me that they still, even though we don't work together, so they don't technically have to talk to me about those conversations, the fact that they still seek me out and keep in touch, and some of them I talk to multiple times a week. So I think those are, those are definitely the big highlights.

Naomi Liu 32:36

That's amazing. So I would almost, even just hearing what you guys are saying, think that, you know, one of the, the superpowers that you'll have is, you know, women supporting women keep. Being in contact with folks, um, helping them to events in their career, and just being overall super supportive. Uh, Vivian Cason and Leah, thank you so much for joining us today. For those of you listening, thank you so much for being a part of this. If you have any suggestions for future topics or guests, please let us know. You can find all of us on LinkedIn or join the daily conversations@marketingops.com if you're not already part of the community. If you're already there, please let us know what you think and remember to subscribe, rate, and review. Thank you.

Kacyn Goranson 33:16

Uh,