Michael Hartmann 0:26

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by Marketingops.com. Powered by the MoPros. I'm your host, Michael Hartmann, uh, today flying solo. But I'm excited cuz today is our first of what we hope will be, uh, the beginning of a short series of episodes on general topic areas, which is what we intend to try to make 2023 as we're going into it. A little more structured, and one of those topic areas is working, is what we're gonna talk about with this guest today, which is how can marketing ops teams work better with, uh, other ops functions? So kicking us off on this episode is actually one of our first returning solo. So first returning solo guest. We have had one other person who's been on one extra time, but not by herself. So Lorena Morales is joining us again. The last time she was here was on an episode in late 2021. It doesn't feel like it's been that long. So, um, Lorena is currently revenue operations executive at j Lll Technologies, and prior to that, Lorena has held several marketing operations leadership roles. She is also currently on the advisory board with synchry and is an active member of several communities, including women in revenue. So Lorena, welcome back. Thanks for joining.

Lorena Morales 1:34

Thank you, Michael. It's such an honor to be one of the, uh, back, uh, speakers because, or guests in the show because it's, you have people that I respect so much, and to be back here is, is such an honor. So thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. As you said, um, yeah, I'm currently direct, uh, the director of, um, Be marketing revenue operations at j Lll, not really JLL Technologies. So, so there's a, there's a correction there, but, uh, because it's a separate company, but yes. Um, it's been more, more than a year, I think. Yeah. I look fast. I process

Michael Hartmann 2:12

so fast. So we are recording this, uh, almost on the anniversary of our first episode, two second, right, which was January. This is January 13th. 23 and we, our first episode was the 15th of 21, and the episode we recorded with you last time was in like October of 2021, which when I, when I looked back and saw that, I was like, could it really have been that long ago? Because it doesn't feel like it.

Lorena Morales 2:37

Yeah, I feel the same. I feel like as you become an adult and you become older, time passes by faster, unfortunately, and not, I hid that age already. So sad, sad story

Michael Hartmann 2:48

to me. Yeah, I I, I remember telling my parents when I was a little bit younger, but old, kind of getting older, and I was like, you really undersold how fast time goes by. Yep. Great. Definitely. So, um, it's, it's definitely something to keep up with. Well, we're glad to have you back. Um, it's, it's kind of fun. I mean, it's hard to believe that we've had so many great guests and that we have had such, you know, fortunate to, to have all of them. And I suspect we'll probably get, start having more people on again. But, um, glad to have you be the first. So why don't we, but why don't we start there with jll, not JLL Technologies. Yeah, I think you were, when we last talked, you had, I think, had just started in that, in that company, and so we're starting to see some things that were kind of new to your, to you in terms of your experience mostly I think, at smaller companies. So maybe an update on like what's going on there and like has anything new come up out of that that you think would be relevant for our audience? Yeah, actually

Lorena Morales 3:45

what's not going on It's, uh, it's been quite of, quite of a journey so far. Um, after that, the, this year that has happened after we last spoke, um, definitely now I have a bigger team. So when we, when we were talking, uh, back in, in October, I. Recently joined joining the company. Yes, that's correct. But, um, I didn't have a team or a big team, so now I am, I have a bigger team, a global team, uh, that manages, I have my eyes in Emia, my, my eyes in apac, and, uh, and my, my agency, a global agency as well running, uh, Americas and also running the other two regions. So now I'm, I'm, I'm in charge of, Regions that are more profitable for the company, so that. Japan, China, Australia, India, Germany, France, Americas, and probably I am missing one somewhere there, uh, which is not good because I should know this by heart. But, uh,

Michael Hartmann 4:47

it's, it been a long, as we were talking about before this, it's been a long week, long month already. It, long

Lorena Morales 4:52

week, long week, long week for me. But, uh, what has changed is definitely I have a, a lean team and a smart team that I made sure, I've always made sure to hire people that. Smarter than me in many ways and in many senses, and this is not the, the, the exception, I made sure to hire really brilliant minds in the space that, uh, already knew revenue operations or that where to, to, to be embarking the journey of revenue operations that had the ability to, to be coachable and to learn these, this function. one of them is my, my analyst who had experience previously in revenue operations. So that was a role that I was like this, this needs to be a person that understands not only the concept, but the execution of revenue operations. And so today we have learned that revenue operations has different flavors in different organizations. We, which I know it might sound very logic, but when you work for a, for a company of this size, 110. Thousand employees. Um, it's, it's quite a different beast. And it's, and it's, and it's been a, a curve, a learning curve that I didn't expect because I had to unlearn a lot of the things that I knew back in my days at, at a consultancy. Um, but that's what, what has changed a bigger team, more responsibilities. And now I'm part of the leadership team of digital market.

Michael Hartmann 6:18

That's great. No, I, I, I love, I I'm with you. Like I wanna hire people who could take my job, right. At some point, right? Maybe they're not there yet, but I think that's really important to see them. And I like the idea, like I also look for people who are coachable. I think that's a really important skill that is probably underrated by a lot of people. Right? I think it's easy to find people who can do. what you need 'em to do. But if they need to learn something else, you wanna make sure they can do that. Yep. So, yep, I'm good. Yeah, I, it'll be, I think it'll be interesting to hear more about what that, that has been like, cuz that's, that is, j l L is definitely a big company, right. With global footprint. So that's, it brings in a whole nother set of challenges. I think that some of the folks who are listening wouldn't experience it, even if they're at a moderately big size company. Mm-hmm. so, Um, okay, so. let's kind of get into this. Like, so one of the reasons we, we've been wanting to be a little more thoughtful and purposeful about the topics we wanna go into and do a little deeper dive over a series of episodes is just, I think what we've found is that there are topics that resonate with people and we wanna go a little deeper, um, in kind of a, a, a shorter period of time. So when. When we last talk, um, you, we talked quite a bit about what you were calling a, a, a maturity model for revenue operations, and I, I kind of remember little bits and pieces of it, um, about how, you know, it goes from sort of centralized to distributed and then back to centralized again as kind of the, if I remember right. Uh, but is your thinking about that still the same or has it changed a little bit now that you've got a little more time at jll?

Lorena Morales 7:59

I think Michael, that's a great question because with time, as I was saying, your perspective of things change and that's exactly what, what happened a little bit. So when, when I was talking last, last year or so about a maturity model, it's, it's basically like a, like a blueprint for event fighting. What are the unique steps, um, an enterprise can take to continuously improve revenues? Because that's the whole point, right? But today I realize that maturity, Not necessarily means being in an X or Y state of things where, for example, all your systems are working and, and communicating between each other and probably you have an 80% accuracy on your forecasting models and, uh, and then, and you have this blue sky and that's when you call the, the, the model that mature enough. No, I think it means movement. And when I say movement, I. That, for example, an organization that is already willing to interview their customers at least once a month or so is already maturing to what level? That depends heavily on, on what the company needs. But like for example, someone already measuring L T B is also maturing. Like that is, that is ma maturing for me. Like I think my vision has changed to from. Thinking that I need to reach certain level to understanding that movement is movement forward to the sides, uh, a little backwards if you're gonna take, um, uh, if you are gonna take two steps back and you're gonna take four steps forward and go backwards. But, um, it's movement for me, uh, uh, at the end. And, and yes, so to your, to answer your question, it has changed a little bit and I have seen that the little improvements that the team has done in, for example, lead management, is, is a sign of maturity and it's a sign that we're doing things the right way.

Michael Hartmann 9:55

Yeah, I, that's really interesting. I like when you said that, that the movement, it, it brought me back to remembering what we've, you know, a lot of people say, uh, like, practice makes perfect, right? Mm-hmm. and one of the things we've always done with our kids is say, practice makes progress, right? And. That's, that's kind of what I thought of when you were there, was like the, the idea that there is some perfect state, right. Some maturity model and once you get there, you're done. Right. You just keep it going. Right is a myth, I think is what you're saying. Right. And so, but you can always make progress and get better and I think it's, it's, it falls into that category of you don't know what you don't know until you're there.

Lorena Morales 10:31

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And that's, that's one of the things that I had to accept. Like I only knew what I knew. And, and there's even a framework for that, uh, in design thinking, which is what we discussed last time, which we're not gonna discuss right now because it could be too much. But, uh, it's, you, you are right. Like you don't know what you don't know. And, and then you need to be uncovering things as you go and figuring things out as you go the same way. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann 10:58

I think that ties in with one of my sort of. I don't know, soapbox topics, which is like, I don't like the idea of, or what I think what the way some people interpret the term best practices, cuz I think oof Right. Okay. So we're maybe we're on the same, because I think like the myth there to me is that you just take what you did before. It just, it you, you drop in everything the same and it works, but. It doesn't because every company's different. The people are different. Their skills and experience, the culture, like all those things have an impact on whether or not something could be just as effective. Yeah,

Lorena Morales 11:32

I agree. I agree. Especially with revenue operations where, and I and I, and I did that phase. I made that phase because I, I find it very funny when people talk about best practices in revenue operations. and I was just having these conversations with Rosalyn Santana and I was like, there's no best practices. This is such a new, um, function. Well, it's a methodology that becomes a function, uh, that you can't really say that there's a best practice. There are things that work that you should double down on, and then there are things that, that you, you should keep improving. But something such as best practices of revenue operations, I don't think they exist at least.

Michael Hartmann 12:15

No, I, I mean, I like to think of things in terms of, I guess I'd call it principles that I like to adhere to. So things like, mm-hmm. um, like I, I'll give an example. So if there's a choice between, uh, making a system. Sort of force people to do certain things or not because you're worried that there's gonna be some downstream impact, like they're gonna make a mistake. Um, but that's gonna slow down or make it less likely that, let's say salespeople less likely that they're gonna put their information in Salesforce. Mm-hmm. like I would, I would generally, from a principal standpoint, Try to trust those people to do the right thing and put less structure in because I think I want, like what's important to that, to them is that they are able to do their job, that we can get stuff and that we can work with them on sort of emphasizing why it's important to do this. and we won't always get everybody, but if we sort of force it and make it too complicated, we'll never get any of it. It won't work. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, that to me, that's a good, like, that's a principle, but that's my, like a principle. I wouldn't say it's a best practice and how that gets applied in any particular situation can vary. I agree. I agree. All right. We're done. I like that. I'll take that. I'll take that. Um, Well, yeah, we mentioned Rosalyn. We need to get Rosalyn on here sometime too. So Rosalyn, if you're listening, what are we calling you again?

Lorena Morales 13:39

Come here. Come here, Rosalyn.

Michael Hartmann 13:41

Yeah. Um, okay, so that's interesting that you, how that's evolved and I think we're in aligned on some of those things. Okay. So most of our audiences, marketing ops folks, and they're I think sure some marketers and, and rev ops people as well. Um, some of the marketing ops folks, we who are listening are probably either. You know, not, they're not, maybe they're not in revenue operations under a team that covers all the go-to-market operations functions. Um, maybe they are anticipating that's gonna happen or they know it's gonna happen. Maybe in particular they're gonna merge with sales ops. Right. Um, what, what do you think they could do in whether that's gonna happen or not, like a rev ops function is gonna happen? What do you think marketer ops folks can do to say better work with their sales ops teams? so that you know they can start to work better. Because I think a lot of reasons why Rev ops has come around is cuz there's like not group, not teams working together Well,

Lorena Morales 14:39

I agree. I agree. And, and when I came to, to j Lll, um, I realized that we didn't have that relationship with the sales op uh, guys. Well we in, in some regions we don't even have the function, but. So I, so I, we use Forester for a lot of things, um, in the organization. And so I, I ran to them and I was like, please help me. How do I communicate effectively with, with my, with my peers? Because they're, seems like they're on the other side of the fence and I can't get there. I just can't get there. And the answer were was as simple as, you're not talking the same language. You're, you're not speaking the same language. So I. that my mistake was, I was coming from a perspective of, Hey, I need this. Instead of looking at the roadmap and see which things can or cannot be prioritized. Um, so what I, what I mean by that, and what I wanna say by that is, I was not respecting them as strategists, and that was my first mistake. So I believe, I believe all operators are gonna, or, or are, are becoming strategists in many ways. Not only the sales ops, but also the marketing ops and the customers obsess ops. But, um, I, I, I truly believe that what I was not applying what I, what I believe, I had value to show at the organization, right? So I thought that my needs were more important than any other. So that was a little selfish of from, from my, from my side. Um, But, uh, when you respect them as a strategist, they are really the ones that are personalizing your systems and enabling the teams to act on, on, on the accounts. So, respect them, respect them, respect them. And then finally, I would say like, find some easy wins. Some easy wins that you can share between both teams or the three teams or whatever you you've been working with, with. Um, those easy wins are gonna show not only value for you, but also to the organization. So when I realized that there were small things here and there that we could share and that we could show to the, to, to higher management, it's when, when we started to build that relationship, and I'm not gonna say that it's perfect or that I have that relationship everywhere in the world, but at least in one of the regions it was successful and it was something that they believed in. And it was something that helped me improve the way I was talking to them and the way I was, um, working with them. So, yeah, that's,

Michael Hartmann 17:09

uh, no, I, I love that. And like, I think that that is a great example of how to build, like, the way I describe it, like trusted long-term relationships. And part of that is being humble to some degree, like confident but humble, right? I think is the term I phrase I like is, is but being humble to say, look, I think you could provide, like I can learn from you and then we can both kind of get something that's gonna be of value, even if it's a relatively small win. Exactly. And I think that's a. Chris, I'm curious, so cuz you've got an international team, this is something I just thought of cuz we've had a couple people on recently who are, um, outside the US which is great cuz we're, uh, liking that perspective. But as you've been working with these teams in other global regions, are you, are you just finding challenging to, uh, build relationships that way? And then if so, are you doing that mostly. Remotely and virtually, or are you able to go and meet face-to-face in some cases?

Lorena Morales 19:19

Dear Lord, that's one of the biggest challenges that I think everyone is, is experiencing after and, and before Covid. Um, however, I think I consider myself a citizen of the world. Like I, I've been working and studying in different cities all over the world, and so I, I I, I understand people culturally deeper than any other human being that you might meet. Um, So coming from that angle, for me, it's not as hard as it could be for others to connect via Zoom. At the very beginning, I, we were, we were allowed to travel. So there was this meeting in London where I got to meet the heads of the regions and. Where Michael, it was fantastic. The feeling of like going for a drink because it goes farther than just talking about what you are doing in X system or Y system, or this process or that process or what X is doing or, or y Um, it's about what matters to people. And if you get to connect with people. To, to personal fibers. That's when you're gonna succeed. Because at the end, I, I, I, I say this repeatedly, like you are selling to account what you're selling to a person. Yeah. The same applies to your teams. Like you're working with a team, but you are working with humans and understanding what. Makes them happy if they are gonna be parents soon, if they are gonna, if they're experiencing a divorce, for example, if they're experiencing a lack of sleep, if they're experiencing things that are. Vital for our human being to function. Um, that's when the, the connections really, really happened. So I was lucky enough to meet part of my team in person, and now I, I mean, I'm like, like I, I don't wanna sound arrogant or anything, but I do believe that I have one of the best teams that I've ever had in my career, and that's because. We connect very well, very, very well to the through Zoom and in and in person in those few occasions that I got to meet them.

Michael Hartmann 21:22

Yeah, I, my experience with working with global teams is even a short window of time in person. It's everything. It's everything. It makes such a huge difference and Yep. And, and to your point, right, I, I've become a big fan of when you. And I learned this years ago when I worked for another big company, Texas Instruments. We had a, a team that was, wasn't international, but it was in another city in the us and I always felt like I had to justify the travel expense. So I'd schedule myself like back to back to back to back. And then, um, in an invariably, like, it didn't really help. What really made the difference was when I intentionally left open time. Mm-hmm. because that's when those conversations, so whether it was going out for dinner or drinks or, but a lot of times it was. walking by somebody's desk in an office and exactly there, there was it, it, those kinds of things I think really make a difference. It's part of what, probably the biggest thing I miss working from home and remotely right now is just not having those regular opportunities to just run into each other and, and connect that way. And it can be about work, but it doesn't have to be.

Lorena Morales 22:28

Generally, it's not about work when you, when you create those deep connections, but I, I agree with you. Sometimes I, I mean, I'm not gonna lie, Michael, like I, I love working from home. I've always been, um, I'm an introvert. I have autism. Like there are many things that, that I recently found about myself that make working from home my ideal state. Sure. However, um, I understand very well how. To have a conversation with someone. And you're right, like even in the coffee break or like going to the bathroom and you run into someone and suddenly you stay with them like 15 minutes, that's gonna create a connection. And I was, again, lucky enough that, and in another occasion my current boss came to San Francisco. and we went for dinner. And today I respect, I already respected her because of the career that she's, she's had, she's this brilliant mind. But like when I got to sit with her and learn about her kids and her husband and her life and like how she manages both, uh, personal life and work, I was like, holy mother, God, God, like this woman is. Superwoman, And so I am, I am lucky enough that I have her as my manager, but it didn't, it couldn't have happened to that degree if she, if she, if she couldn't have come to San Francisco and spent some

Michael Hartmann 23:52

time with me. Yeah, it's, it's interesting, I, I just happened to have a conversation with somebody earlier today who wanted to sort of pick my brain about maybe starting a podcast and it was not a work related one. It would be one more for kind of, um, I don't even know how to describe it. I want, anyway, long story short, I was told, I was like, one of the things I think that really ma would make it. Really resonate compared to others that might overlap with the target audience would be if you got people on who got really vulnerable. Right. And I think there's, yeah, there's something like that. So, uh, anyway, sorry I took us off track there. So let me So, uh, we're recording this in early 2023, right? We all kind of know that the current economic situation. Weird, bad. I don't know how to describe it exactly. And one of the impacts I think has been the, the idea of revenue operations, I think really started at earlier stage companies, right? Mm-hmm. um, startups and things like that. Um, and I think they're the ones that are getting affected by cuts and stuff like that, maybe more, more so than the general economy, but, Do you think, Ken, what's your take? Do you think that that's gonna affect the evolution or excel? You know, is it gonna slow down or accelerate the, the move towards revenue operations? What do you think is gonna happen from that standpoint?

Lorena Morales 25:12

If we think about like, what is revenue operations at its core? I think the answer could be it will. It will only accelerate it. Revenue operations means agility and means effectiveness, and means the sprinting in several areas of the business. And I think that will allow businesses to, as we were saying, to double down in what is working and cardwell what's not. Um, so, and, and this was one of my predictions that I gave to Synchry, uh, a little while ago, uh, like last week or something where I think individuals are gonna start making real time, um, operational. that are gonna be available cross-functionally anytime, anywhere. Because, because you can't afford to, to, to be the, the, the, the person that, that reports late or that your da your data doesn't make sense or anything like that. But like with the shortages of, of human capital and, and the things that we're experiencing, unfortunately, I think this is a time to be linear than ever, and to be nimble and to be very intentional about what you are doing, and if possible, become indispensable for your company. I, I, I, I understand that nobody's indispensable because companies are gonna get rid of you like this. We are seeing that more than ever, but like, if there's a time where you need to learn more things and where you need to to become more useful is right now, and revenue operations allow. People to do that because revenue Operations is a cross-functional, um, entity that should work with all departments at simultaneously. So when you think about it, if one individual is, let's say the director of Revenue Operations, that like, it's my case, um, today, I need to find a way more than ever to create more value to, to the organization and find hidden revenue faster than ever. Um, so if you, if you ask me, I think the, the, the, the tendency of, of, of starting revenue operations teams and to really build those teams effectively is gonna be right now.

Michael Hartmann 27:24

So, um, it's, I think this is interesting because I think what you're, this. Becoming a somewhat of a theme across our episodes, a different, sort of different, uh, from different ways. But this idea that operations teams, that part of the value and part of the way they show themselves as being strategic is. like leveraging their both access and understanding of the data that they have. Mm-hmm. right? To uncover opportunities for whether it's hidden, hidden revenue or hidden ways at which, you know, you win better and stuff like that. So are you, do you think, here's my, my concern with that? I mean, I tend to agree with you. I think that's a place where you, like, you can add value if you're in operations. Cuz you should know the, you should know the data well, you should be able to have access to it. So you should be able to carve out time. My concern is that, I think that is that there's a lot of people in ops who, I think particularly in marketing ops, if they're relatively new and have been heavily focused on, I'll call it campaign operations mm-hmm. is that they don't really understand how to, uh, analyze data. Right. That it's a skill that is, I think, I think it's a skill, that there's a gap with what is needed. The general population of people in the role have,

Lorena Morales 28:45

I think it's not only marketing op Michael, I think it's general marketing. Like when you think, oh yeah, for sure. When you think about the marketer of 2006 of 2011, all the way to the marketer of 2023. it has substantially changed and that transition and transformation happened to me because I, I come from like to, to the audience that thinks that in order to be in revenue operations, you need to have an operations background. That's not true. Like I come from traditional marketing or what it's called traditional mark marketing, and I had to force myself. To be comfortable in front of a Salesforce dashboard. For example, I don't crack anymore if you put me in front of a dashboard. I

Michael Hartmann 29:31

used to, I'm sorry. I can't imagine you cracking on any of this. So,

Lorena Morales 29:37

well, I did. I did at some point in my life and I was like, wait, but this is not what I am used to. Like my, my function is not based, like, why should I learn the data? Like data is for the engineers. And so that transition of like the marketer now needs to. Equal parts of science and art, it's beautiful. Right now it's the, for me, it's the best time to be a marketer. The best absolute time. And there's a reason why marketing ops people are in, in race and they are like paying a massive amounts of money to these, to these folks because one, they deserve it. Mm-hmm. And second, because they are kind of becoming the brains of the organiz.

Michael Hartmann 30:21

Yeah. No, I, so I think my, my, based on what you said, right, because I think if I, if I can read between the lines, like you sort of forced yourself to learn. Yep, yep. And you saw that that was gonna be a key. part of being successful. So for all of our audience and listeners, you know, take that advice, right? If you, if you wanna, you know, make yourself valuable, figure out how you can leverage data that you've got access to because no one else in the organization probably knows how to do it better than you. That's really, I think, the message there. Um, Okay. So I think we covered this. We may have covered this a little bit, but, um, we talked about like best practices and principles and that kind of stuff. Are you, is there, um, are there any things that you see in how you would've approached things when you're either with or advising a smaller earlier stage company than what you're seeing or doing at jll? Which, you know, there's probably something in between too, but you know, in term that's like the two extremes, right?

Lorena Morales 31:26

I think there are, um, items or tactics that of, that are true to revenue operations that. That don't apply when, when you are, um, a multimillion, uh, or actually a, a multi-billion, uh, company. So for example, I was talking earlier about sprinting. Sprinting kind of doesn't apply in, in a bigger organization simply because of the, of the amount of people in bulk. But if we look. Another, another skill, which is road mapping that applies to every single organization of every single size. So you need to kind of pick and choose and slice and dice the the skills that a revenue operations person has. In order to, to apply them to the, the stage of the company that, that you are talking about. Um, those are the two that I can think right away, uh, here in, in my mind. I'm sure there are more and people are, can agree or disagree with me, but, um, that's what, that what I have in mind. Right, right now.

Michael Hartmann 32:31

Yeah, I, I think you're, that's, those are good examples of two things that would be very different in the state size stage company. I think maybe one that, um, I think I've seen both at smaller and larger companies as a struggle is just how do you prioritize mm-hmm. So say you come, so say you have a roadmap, right? There's, there's. Choosing how do you get from where you are to where you want to be? There's different ways you could approach that. Right? Then you can only sort of take, make progress on part of it at a time usually. Um, do so I, I think of it, I, I, my guess is the sim a similar structure would work regardless of the size of the company if you did it right. But the speed at which you do it might be different. Exactly. Exactly. I. Okay. That, yeah. That's interesting. Um, do, do you, so you and I are both at relatively large companies and there's, there's a part of me that it may, it's, it's hard to, to deal with that lack of sprinting, but I recognize that it's important, so it's, um, yeah, it's, it's a challenge sometimes for sure. It's

Lorena Morales 33:40

something that I miss too, but. because it's interesting to test things as as rapid as you can, but also it's nice to feel that not everything is a fire in your hands. Yeah. It's, you know, it also gives you a little peace of mind to say like, okay, the world is not gonna end if I don't finish this by Friday. Yeah. Um, It's, it's, it's just everything in life has it's, it's good things and it's bad things, so you just need to choose, choose your poison,

Michael Hartmann 34:12

right? Yeah. I, I have teenager, teenagers at home, so I try to tell them, cuz they're. prone to wanting to know like what's the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do, or Right decision or wrong decision. Like that's not how real life works, right? It's made up of a bunch of tradeoffs. Mm-hmm. and choosing which tradeoffs matter more to you or the other people in short term versus long term, right? Those are all things that, it depends, right? So yeah, the great consulting answered everything, right? It depends. It depends. it. Um, what, so let's, one of the things I think we all probably also struggle with is how do we know if our ops team is being successful, right? Do you, do you, how do you go about measuring the, your, your, you know, are you doing what you're supposed to be doing, your effectiveness or your team's effectiveness? How do you, how do you go about measuring that? Because I, I know I struggle with that sometimes. I always wanted to tie it to revenue, but. Step back from that because I think there's too many other things outside of my team's control. There

Lorena Morales 35:17

are two sides to, to this answer. I think like the first one is, yes, you can tie to revenue because you can measure velocity and therefore you can see faster sales cycles. So if you start seeing that velocity, um, uh, decreases, that's, that's a good thing. Uh, or like you start to see less revenue leakages through the. Those are good signs that your operations teams are working together and that, and that you are doing things the right direction. But Michael, ultimately, I mean it's gonna sound again super logic, but like it's gonna be your customer that, that, that, that will tell you because they will feel less friction and oh boy, they, they will let you know. Right now we are. Hyper dramatic and hyper. Um, ex, uh, uh, what's, what's the name? Um, uh, e Extra. Um, we want things our own way, in our own time, in our own moment. If not, we become babies and we, and we complain in every single platform that we c have access to. Right. So, if the experience feels smoother, like for example, like buying a Tesla where everything feels so easy and practical and like if you think about like buying a car in the 1990s or the two thousands against how is buying a Tesla right now? Jesus Christ. Like who would have imagined that you can buy everything and personalize it in your phone and in 10 minutes you have a Tesla uh, bot. It's, it's crazy to me. So it's how do you measure Europe's functions are, are working and are working together? Well, ask your customer as your customer, how is their experience? Because everything is, uh, is around the customer, uh, journey. And so if they feel like they had a good experience with you, if you have higher NPSs scores, which I kind of believe half, half and half, because people not always, um, put the right thing on NPS S'S scores. But if you. Talking to your customers enough, you're gonna know if you're doing things right.

Michael Hartmann 37:19

Yeah. I love that you're talking about customers, cuz I think that's one thing I try to encourage all of our listeners regularly is what, like, I appreciate the idea of internal customers, but it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Mm-hmm. Like I mm-hmm. I just don't like that term cuz I think customers are customers. Right. Exactly. And, and if we lose sight of that, uh, and maybe it's just words, but I think that the words matter. Like to me, if we're doing things that make it easier for us to do things, but it's harder for our end customers to actually engage with us in business, then it's probably not the right thing. Exactly. Exactly. So, um, that, yeah. So that's, that's great. Um, any, do you have any other, I mean, do you have any specific things you measure? Like if Naomi was on here, I know she thinks about, um, like, uh, How much are people actually using platforms that they've got in their tech stack and things like that as a measure? Mm-hmm. do you have anything like that that you look at?

Lorena Morales 38:15

Not at the moment because I'm telling revenue patients is very, very green at jll. So we're starting like from the basics. So I don't, I don't measure, um, right now KPIs. Operational performance, we should Mm-hmm. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't, we should. Uh, but, but, uh, probably my, my brain is gonna take me to, to what I told you, like to Yeah. The customer to, to value. Or to, to velocity, to velocity, to value to, to conversion rates, uh, to kind of measure the funnel and see if, if things are marching the, the way they are supposed. Right now we are doing, uh, comparisons between the data of 2022, uh, to to, to 2021. And I'll start to see like what happened at this at the same time of the year, but like the previous year. And so with those insights, we are kind of starting to, to see. What are the trends in the company? And so hopefully one day we're gonna be able to, to measure operational

Michael Hartmann 39:19

performance. Yeah, that's great. Awesome. Uh, okay, so we've covered a lot of, you know, a lot of ground here. Let's see, Um, so let me just, I'll just open it up like, is there anything else that like. I think especially, it's really interesting that you're, yeah. How some of your, your views have maybe shifted a little bit since you've been at jll. Just is there anything else that we, you, you think would be valuable for our, our listeners and our audience, um, that we haven't covered thus far?

Lorena Morales 39:51

I think I doubled down in what we were covering on, on the kip learning. Where were you? Say, like you, you had to learn. Yes, I had to, but I. Was open to do it because a lot of people are willing to, to, to read something or to, because, because the job requires it. But make it a muscle, make it a, a thing that you actually enjoy. Um, again, and I'm gonna keep clicking on this because. It's tough times that we were discussing become useful, becoming dispensable for your organization, especially in these days. Um, I think if, if that, if there's an advice I could give to someone right now, it would be that one. Like go and, and, and be intentional about what you learn and apply it. Try to apply it in, in an, in with friends make brain sessions or, or as I call them, brain dates. I have a lot of brain dates with, with people in the industry where I just say like, how are you doing this? Or how are you doing that? I'm, I'm gonna, for example, I'm gonna enroll at the C R O school from Pavilion next week because I wanna understand the, the role of the, of the CRO and how to sit, apply to j. regardless if I am a CRO or not. Sure. Um, be that type of person right now because your organization needs it. Um, so that's what I

Michael Hartmann 41:08

would. Love it. Great. Well, Lorena, this is, has been fun. Again, like just what, what it was last time is if folks wanna connect with you or keep us with what you're doing and learn from you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Lorena Morales 41:23

LinkedIn is always the best way to, to connect with me because I don't discriminate. I accept literally everyone. Uh, please, if you're gonna sell me, sell me in the right way. Uh, probably I'll buy, who knows, but, uh, oh, there you go. But LinkedIn at, uh, linkedin.com/in/morales. Lorena. Um, you can find me there.

Michael Hartmann 41:44

Perfect. Well, Lorena, thank you so much. It's been fun. Uh, thanks to all of our listeners out there and, and all of our audience. We appreciate everything, so continue to give us your feedback and thoughts and suggestions and ideas on topics and guests. And if you want to be one, just uh, hit up me, uh, Mike Grizzler, Naomi Lou through LinkedIn or the marketing ops.com community. Until next time, thanks everybody.

Lorena Morales 42:09

Thank you everyone. Thank you, Michael. Bye.