Michael Hartmann 0:24

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by the MO Pros, the community powered by MarketingOps.com in this year of the MO Pro. So yes, we are gonna be doing a special episode here with just the three amigos Mike Rizzo, Naomi Liu, and me Michael Hartmann talking about the new MarketingOps.com site and how that's tied into the MO Pros community and everything else. So. Tell us about it.

Mike Rizzo 0:53

I don't know. I mean, we rapped about it yesterday. So, and you did a nice little jig on that rap that you, the music, is that what it is?

Michael Hartmann 1:01

A jig. It's a jig. Yeah. Okay. So I had to have to, so I played that, um, on my computer, I was sitting at the dining room table cuz that's now with all the kids home. That's where my desk is. Oh yeah. And uh, my oldest was. He didn't see it, but he is like, is that like, did you have any involvement with that? and I don't think it meant, I don't think he meant it as a compliment

Mike Rizzo 1:24

uh, it was

Michael Hartmann 1:25

so much fun. Yeah, it was, it was fun. Seems to be well, so for our listeners, if you haven't already seen it, there is a great little rap video. What was the, the guy's name? Ding. Ding

Mike Rizzo 1:36

Zang. Yeah. Yeah. Ding like the doorbell. That's what he likes to say to people when he introduces himself ding

Michael Hartmann 1:42

like the doorbell, as long as he

Mike Rizzo 1:43

says it. Yeah, I would not, I would not say that unless he actually told me that that's how he introduc he literally introduced himself that way to me.

Michael Hartmann 1:52

All right. So we, we, you know, we've got a marketing ops wrap now that's part

Mike Rizzo 1:56

of the launch, but yeah, that's pretty much it, right? Like that's all MarketingOps.com is about, it's just creating music videos, these days, music videos. no, I could do, I could do that. No, I I'm super excited about the launch. Uh, it's been a long time coming, like for level setting, storytelling context, um, whatever you want to call it. I had, I was fortunate enough to, um, acquire that do domain a year ago, literally a year ago. Um, I, we were at our summer camp. Last year and I had finalized the transaction and it took everything in my willpower to not like share with the room that like we had this really cool opportunity to like, go create like the home for all of this stuff that we're talking about right here in this room or on slack or on the podcast. And, uh, and you know, it'll live on MarketingOps.com. Like that just sounds so fun. Um, So I didn't tell anybody then, and, you know, fast forward it's been a year and it's been a long slog. And I apologize for any of the hiccups in the migration that some of you may have experienced, but it was relatively smooth and yeah, it, it it's, I'm referring to it. Or I should say we're all sort of referring to it as the community led platform for marketing operations professionals. Um, really at the end of the day, it's. It's a lift and shift from the content that we were creating on the Mo pro's website and then, um, adding in more layers of educational material. Um, and I think most importantly is the, uh, user profile that we're focused in on. Um, so you can go to marketing apps.com. And create effectively a LinkedIn style, um, professional profile, uh, that speaks to your talents and your skills in a way that, you know, frankly, LinkedIn doesn't do a very good job of, um, you know, you can list your marketing ops, MarTech certifications. You can dive in a little bit more deeply on telling us, you know, what types of other skills do you have and how many years of experience do you have in those skills? So, You know, maybe you're really well versed at, uh, Python or data and analytics or something like that. And you can slide your years of experience and your excellence, like, like. The degree with which you feel confident enough to say you're an advanced or an expert or a beginner, you can tell us all of that stuff. Uh, and then hopefully as you decide to become more involved in the community and you decide to maybe invest in, uh, creating content for, through the community, uh, maybe you're publishing some thought leadership on our blog, or you become an ambassador or you become a host of a workshop. We're gonna pull all of that stuff through. I mean, gosh, if you're a guest on this podcast, we're gonna tag you to that episode, put it onto our website and that's gonna pull right through to your website or to your profile specifically. And you know, you see that on LinkedIn, right? People can write articles and you can see some of those things, but. Um, the way I like to think of it is that the next time you go to apply for a role at marketing ops, I think it would be really nice, uh, and a win. I think we really hit the mark. If someone sends someone their MarketingOps.com professional profile, and it shows. The way that they write the way that they speak the way, like, so they're on a podcast, right? The way that they teach, maybe they hosted a workshop or they, they, they became a professor with our professors program and they can see all of the certifications and skills that they've acquired over the years in a way that just, you know, I, I think was missing for, for a lot of us and the community helps sort of shape what that might look like. Um, so that's really like. The essence of what's behind it is like, how do we, uh, create an environment to elevate, uh, all of the marketing ops professionals out there, and then give them the ability to go showcase those skills in a very unique way. I don't think all that comes through on the website's one page,

Michael Hartmann 5:59

by the way. well, yeah, so I, I like a couple of things. So for, for those who don't know, I'm just coming back from literally being off the grid. I was like not, I was actually not online when all this went live recording about a week later from when it launched. But, um, I don't think I realized that. I mean, I knew there was the profile thing, but I didn't realize you had that vision for it. So I think, okay. So I need to go add to my to-do list to, to go make sure my profile's up there. So just to use it,

Mike Rizzo 6:28

you know, frankly, I'm glad to hear you say that, Michael cuz uh, I was talking with some of the other community members and, and some of the folks on the leadership side and you know, who have been helping kind of build all this stuff with me. Um, and. I said, gosh, I feel like I need to do like a, a, I don't know, like a LinkedIn live or something where I go through, like what a profile really could look like. Um, so that people understand, like, this is not just a, you know, like business that we're just like trying like, no, like, this is meant to like give everybody a chance to like learn, absorb, join a community and have a real cool professional profile. Like, that's what it's for. Um, but you know, like maybe one day the homepage will just look more like a social media page um, and you'll log right into the directory instead. But for right

Naomi Liu 7:15

now it's where do you see this in? Like, if you were to talk to yourself six months from now, or even a year from now, like this time next year, and you were to say, this is where I envision. The site being and, and the use cases and things like that. I'm curious what your, your vision for that

Mike Rizzo 7:31

is. Yeah, that's a good question. Um, so we haven't launched, we've teased at launching the educational, uh, courses that are practitioner led, right? So we've engaged. Almost 30 community members who are, um, each working on their own course material. So I envision by, you know, this year alone, we will release a number of courses that, uh, those professors themselves created. And then by this time, next year, we'll have, you know, hopefully a, a nice offering of educational material. Um, some of that material will be made free, um, depending on how it's subsidized by any partners doesn't mean that your data's gonna be sent across to some partner, but we're trying to make some of this stuff accessible because we need more entrance into the market. Um, But the, the call out there is that, um, with the professor program launching, um, I'm hoping that we will. By this time next year, really have the foundation of that certification that we all keep talking about. Um, so think of it a little bit like a collegiate program where you can, um, maybe earn some credits. And so there's hopefully gonna be a number of courses that are available either free or paid, um, that you can go take as credits towards. Really showcasing that, you know, what it takes to do marketing ops. Um, and it really has a backing and it's community led again, like it's backed by real, everyday practitioners, teaching real topics. Um, and eventually we'll, we'll be making strides towards launching that certification program. Um, I would like to see that come to fruition in the next year. I'd say the other part that's really kind of interesting is, um, we talk a little bit about it. You it's like it's tucked away in a line item of like what I would refer to as the membership pricing page, right? Like quote unquote, as I do air quotes, um, there's one line that says like something like, um, paid consulting opportunities. Um, just for anyone that listens to this episode, what that really means is that. Taking that data that you've provided about yourself as an expert, we can anonymize that information. And O if you opt into the program, right, you have to opt in. Um, we can present you as an expert in topics, and people may want to ask you about, you know, your experience as they go to build new tools, new technology, or, or maybe just purely, how do I. How do I scale Marketo? right. Um, we wanna present you as experts to those folks that are looking for, for, for all of you and give you an opportunity to, um, maybe earn a little bit of income from that exchange.

Naomi Liu 10:19

I mean, I just had an amazing idea, like real time ask an expert, live chat. where he just, I have a question, right? Like wouldn't I goodness, how do I do this? I literally was thinking about this today and I had a Salesforce question that I needed some help with. And I was like, man, like, My sales force person is on vacation. I don't like, who do I talk to? It's just, you know, so ask an expert type series. I feel like that would be pretty cool. Buy credits, credits, and you just like so cool. You know,

Mike Rizzo 10:50

right. The credits thing is super interesting to me. Like I, I went down this, uh, with an advisor of mine. I sort of went down this rabbit hole. Like I'm not gonna go down. All of the, you know, is web three, a thing or tokens and all that stuff. Like that's not the kind. System that I want to try to architect necessarily, nor do I want to get into a debate about whether that's a good platform, but I do like the concept of what sort of Reddit has done with like the way that they do token. Right. Um, so maybe like as a part of being a member, you have the ability to like reward other members for their time. Right. And so I, I wanna find a way the inherent problem with like the reward systems that we're used to, like hotel points or credit cards or whatever, is that it, it serves the business. Right. And so like, for those of you that know me well enough, like I'm, I have a problem with serving the quote unquote business that we're in. uh, I would much rather create an environment where you get to trade between each other. Uh, these tokens, right. And it serves less of the business and more of the people. Uh, and so if there's a way where we can architect a program that says like, Hey, I've, I've sort of gotten a certain number of tokens or credits or whatever, and I really need some of Naomi's time. Um, Naomi and exchange gets your tokens and she can then go use those for something else too. You know, maybe she uses them to buy a course. And so eventually it helps the business, but like, Basically, it's an exchange system between the community to reward behavior for, you know, being a good community member. so, anyway, I, sorry, tangented there, but I think, I think the idea of asking an expert and this whole concept of like, how do you create value and reward? Good ex good exchange between the community is something that's super top of mind for.

Naomi Liu 13:54

Yeah, it's kind of like, um, uh, office hours, right. You know? Yeah. Back in, back in school and you go to your TA or your prof and you're like, I need, I need help on some so and something, something. And you know, when they're online and it's just rotating, uh, list of, or a schedule of experts that can log in any time you can chat with them. I just, I just think that would be such a, sometimes you just need a quick, not even just asking questions, but it's like a sanity check. Hey. like, does this make sense? Is there, are there any gotchas, is there something that I'm totally missing here?

Mike Rizzo 14:25

You know? Yeah. It's so, um, it's so funny. So back in the day, this is probably five years ago. Maybe more. I, I, I have a hard time remembering, but, um, when I was learning marketing ops and I was, uh, I was getting involved with. What I would refer to now is sort of like the product led stuff, right? Thinking about how to take product level data and trigger marketing automation stuff. Um, I was learning how to code and I struggled with that a lot. Right. I was like, how do I teach myself Ruby on rails? Cuz that at the time was what Maven link was built on. Um, and I, they still are. And I'm sure, um, So I started learning code and I was pair programming with some folks. And I was just like, you know what? Like these poor people are just giving me their time. Like my engineers are just giving me their time. They're so sweet. That's so nice of them to help me out. But like, wouldn't it be nice if there was just like digital handshake that could be made where it's like, I really want to learn this thing and I need to source a learner. And anyway, I ended up like trying to go down that, that route for a little while. Like how do you create an environment where if I want Naomi's time, like she can actually get like, paid for that. Uh, and then it'll be like an Uber system, right? Where like you rate me as the learner. And if I just wanted you to do the work for me, you give me a really bad rating. Because I'm not clearly, I'm not trying to actually learn. I just wanted you to do the job

Michael Hartmann 15:50

um, trying to create, create a marketplace

Mike Rizzo 15:52

kind of. Yeah. And I was like, cool, wouldn't that be so neat? And then I was like, I have no idea how to do that. So it just like never went that way.

Michael Hartmann 15:59

everything I've ever heard about those kinds of businesses. It's really hard because typically you're, you know, most new businesses you're developing a product for a, you know, end consumer, whether it's a business or an individual. Um, in this case, right. When you're doing a marketplace, you need both sides to be able to, like you needed a, a core set of people to be a part of that, to make the marketplace worthwhile for any of them to be there. Yeah.

Mike Rizzo 16:20

That's the hard part. Yeah. Marketplaces are I've. I I've talked with many, uh, entrepreneur about that too. And, uh, And just, Hey, I read some blogs about it. Speaking of what we were talking about before the shift started, but right. I was like, wow, that seems really complicated. so you read

Michael Hartmann 16:37

a blog, you read a blog post How, how, how 2015, right? Right now me. Yes.

Naomi Liu 16:43

Yes. I, um, I, what we were talking about earlier, before we, we started this recording, is that the other day I had, um, Uh, I was having snacks or adult beverages with a good friend of mine. And, uh, she is a travel, uh, slash lifestyle influencer blogger. Um, but I would say one of the OG bloggers, um, she started probably like, 10 12 years ago when the word or, um, having a job as an influencer, wasn't really a thing, right? It just, that it just didn't really, that vernacular just didn't really exist. And, you know, she was making a significant, she was making all of her income, significant amount of income. Um, Through her blog, advertising, how to get the best deals for flights, um, hotels, what you should look for things around like how to plan an itinerary and where you should go. Best places to visit and tons and tons of ad revenue and traffic through her site. But something that she had noticed over the past, and this started even before COVID had happened, I would say. Saw it happening a couple years before COVID started, is that the decrease in, um, blog traffic was actually significant. I started dropping significantly, uh, quarter after quarter and year after year, but in on the reverse, her, uh, social following on Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, even Facebook, um, just started growing more and it led to a really interesting discussion where she just felt like people are more interested in consuming. Small quick bits of information, all in one place, as opposed to reading about it on a blog while they're scrolling through ads and popups and things like that. And I mean, I don't disagree,

Mike Rizzo 18:34

right. Either. I, I try

Naomi Liu 18:37

to find a recipe for pie. That's what I was gonna say. You are like reading four paragraphs of their family history. We cook a lot while you're trying to click on the ingredients list and you accidentally click on a popup. So yes.

Michael Hartmann 18:51

It's probably happened to me a couple of times already this week. Cause we've been, yeah. Uh, we we're always looking for new recipes, but you know, Yeah. Especially through COVID it's like gotta come up with new stuff. That's it's interesting though. I I'm cur you know, it's well, I think we, so we talked about this, right? Like I'm a big fan of, um, podcasts in general, right? As a listener, not just doing this, but I think there's something about. I think it's probably somewhat about how people learn. I don't know. I like, I see this with my, since I have kids who all are, you know, think of your kids being, you know, all coming out of the same parents, but they're different in the way they, they work. Like one, like mine are very much, especially one, right? Audible audio listener, like learners can listen to something or watch a video. And it's in there. That's not me for me. I, I actually don't retain as much. So it's interesting that it's taking off, but I do think there's something about be able to start and stop. I mean, that's part of why I think people, like, I don't read as many books as I would like to. And part of that is because by the time I'm able to do it, have to sit down, I have to have kind of quiet cuz I have to, I can't concentrate with there's other stuff going on and. And then I have to remember, okay, where was I again? Especially if it's like a complicated book and then I have to go back and I start over and then I fall asleep and I just like,

Mike Rizzo 20:15

I'm the same way. I, uh, I think we've probably talked about this before, either offline or on a, on an episode. But, um, I always, I, I have made my mom growing up because she would get so in like, Into whatever it was that she was reading that she literally could just like magically not hear me anymore. I'd be like, mom, mom, she, you know, just couldn't hear me. She thought you were Stewy yeah, totally. Mom, mom, mom, you, uh,

Michael Hartmann 20:45

yeah. Naomi, those, you can't see, you know, we're on, uh, Naomi's like nodding, but I don't think she really knows what that reference was. Did

Mike Rizzo 20:52

you know it stew? Did you say Stewy?

Naomi Liu 20:54

Yeah, I did. I'm assuming family guy.

Mike Rizzo 20:57

Yes, that is right.

Naomi Liu 20:58

Okay. Give me a little bit more credit here. Seriously. You

Mike Rizzo 21:00

got it. You, you earned in a world, you to

Naomi Liu 21:04

certain token. I mean, Brian and the dog that always wants to kill the family and Meg. I know it. I know

Mike Rizzo 21:11

it. I know it.

Michael Hartmann 21:12

Yeah, so there, but there is a particular one that I've shown my kids multiple times where they're doing that. Mom, mom, mom, mama.

Mike Rizzo 21:18

Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. I, so for me reading, I'm very much the same way. I, I don't retain from reading, uh, like it's harder to, to get locked in. Right. Um, I do retain the stuff that I read. And my other problem is that once I finally get into a book, I get about halfway through the thing and I'm like, yeah, I get. like, if it's not like a, you know, An entertainment book, if it's like more of a business book, which is pretty much all I'm ever gonna actually pick up. Um, I always go to get to a point where I'm like, okay, I get it. I just like put it down, which is horrible, but with a podcast or video content, I can pause it and I can come back and I can rewind. And it's being like injected into my brain versus like the, I guess I'm lazy. I guess that's what it boils down to is that I'm lazy and need people to like feed it into my brain. but, you know, in terms of, in terms of viewership change, Naomi. You know, I think going back to a little bit to what Michael just said, like, you know, it depends on how you learn. Um, it also depends on the, the, the industry a little bit, I think, um, on a regular, very regular basis in the community. I get, I get pinged about, um, one of the blog posts on our blog. That is, has broken images in it. and I, it, you know, shout out to Brad, Brad, if you are listening, I would love to get those images fixed, man. these people love your blog post. Um, but they ask, you know, Hey, I've been trying to go through this content, but unfortunately, these, you know, these images are broken or whatever. So, you know, I know it's like only a couple people asking me about it, but they're, they're going to the blog. Right? They. They're checking it out. They're reading the howtos. Um, and I think this audience, at least from what I've experienced so far, a good chunk of the marketing operations professionals really enjoy the ability to go back and look at that documentation or that process. Um, and then, you know, maybe pull that into to whatever it is that they need. But I think the same is also true for, you know, the reason why we created the no BS demo. Is exactly for the concept that like, I don't have time. So like to your friend's point, Naomi, where like so many of, and to sort of what you were saying, right? Like I would rather consume short form content on social. Than like go read an entire blog post. Like, yeah. I would much rather consume a short form, like no BS demo than sit through an hour and a half long discovery and multiple demos of this product. Right. So, you know, we are community led, like we're trying to create content that the community wants to consume, but they, like, we sort of take the cues from what people are literally asking for. Um, you know, So for what it's worth, like, I am not surprised that the blog has a decrease in traffic, but I'm also, um, you know, like expecting that certain industries will react a different way.

Naomi Liu 24:22

Yeah, definitely. And I feel like, you know, it depends on why you're consuming the content, right? Like, I think for most of us it's relevant because we're probably, we're doing our jobs at a computer at a desk. We're not running marketing ops teams from our phone or iPad. Right. Whereas like when we're probably relaxing after work and trying to do some trip planning or looking at recipes or like meals to make you maybe. You know, at a grocery store on your phone trying to scroll through something. Right. So it is very different in that sense. And I think the good thing about. Technology in this kind of medium, is that it, you have the ability to flex based on data, right?

Mike Rizzo 24:59

So mm-hmm, mm-hmm yeah, I will say though, on the subject of recipes and, and all that, uh, one of the other popular communities out there that I'm in published a recipe that today that was curated by the community. I was like, that's fascinating. Ooh. So I'm like, do we need to have like a recipe program or like a recipe

Naomi Liu 25:18

club?

Michael Hartmann 25:18

I feel like that would. when, when you say curated, like mult, like it was like almost like a Wiki kind of thing where people like, Hey, we wanna do a recipe for. I don't

Mike Rizzo 25:28

know how to some sort, some sort of dish. Yeah. I don't know how they pulled it all together, but it seems like they have like this new club now. And, and what was shared today was, um, some sort of, some sort of recipe for some sort of meal. So I just was fascinating

Michael Hartmann 25:42

and the community kind of, it was a community col collaboration to come up with it.

Mike Rizzo 25:46

It seems that way. At least that's how I that's. That was like the, the quick. You know, two second scroll that I gave it where I was like, oh, interesting. We

Naomi Liu 25:53

should do the same. Except it can only be from like the fifties or sixties and involve like jello and pass mold. that could be, I remember those some version of mayonnaise. I don't

Mike Rizzo 26:07

know. I like,

Michael Hartmann 26:08

so as long as real mayonnaise, miracle Whipp does not count as mayonnaise just for the

Mike Rizzo 26:12

record. yeah. I, you know what I'm with you on that. Uh, but so I'm curious from, from your. Y'all's too, you know, perspective and anybody who listens to this, if you want to message me feel free. Um, I tend to err as much as possible on the side of like, sorry, did you

Naomi Liu 26:30

say message me for.

Mike Rizzo 26:33

Oh, did I say that? I,

Naomi Liu 26:36

I thought that that, no, but it's, it's funny because it's almost like the ASCA expert thing. It's like, you can talk to me.

Mike Rizzo 26:42

that's not, I said I didn't mean to going forward.

Naomi Liu 26:47

um, subliminally you're already plotting those up.

Mike Rizzo 26:50

Maybe I am that's well, it's

Michael Hartmann 26:51

really nail it's the, it's his gateway drug

Mike Rizzo 26:53

it's nail it's Naomi

Naomi Liu 26:56

called. For for the next two weeks, you can message me for free

Mike Rizzo 27:00

yeah. Stay always fall for planting that seed. It's not mine. uh, anyway, so message me, uh, in whatever, wherever it doesn't matter. Just message me. But the question that I have for the two of you is like, I tend to err on the side of, um, be. Like be less noisy. like ask fewer random questions, uh, share fewer random things and like do less random stuff. But that means sometimes that I might not like I'm sort of blocking myself from thinking about other community programs that might actually be kind of fun. So here we are talking about recipes and I thought like that was interesting, but I also wondered like how much of this min almost 30,000 person group that I'm in. You know, that resonated with, was that noise or was that fun? Is that just because 1% needed that? Like, so I don't know, like, you know, are we too noisy? Does that start to push us in the direction of being too noisy, too clicky? Like, I don't know. How do you all feel about the level of activity at the community level in the communities that you're a part of and you could be hypercritical of our own.

Michael Hartmann 28:13

Yeah, I'll take, so my first thought was not like, are they noisy? My first thought was for your perspective, Mike, I think if what you're worried about is how will I know when it's too noisy? I think you'll like the community will tell you very quickly that yeah. They'll so I don't think there's any risk of that. You just need to make sure you're listening for it. And then being ready to try. Sort of adjust. Um, I think that's one of the good things about these communities. Um, so I, you know, I joined several communities over the last few years and I probably say this all the time. Like I wish that they had been around 10, 15, 20 years ago, you know, whereas different places in my career. But, um, there are several that I've like, I've had to really narrow it down because. Uh, at least for me, you know, I'm, I'm easily distracted by the squirrel running by, you know, so when I start hearing these popup messages that, oh, there's a notification. I feel like I feel guilty, not reading through all these posts. Mm-hmm so I've had to just like shut down certain ones and just not pay attention to them at all. So I I'm no longer, really active. And I suspect actually there's probably, you know, there's a number of communities that have come up over the last few years that are in, that would make sense for, from a professional standpoint, for someone like me to be in. And I've just sort of made conscious decisions about which ones I continue to participate in one, I don't mm-hmm and it might do. I feel like I might be missing out on stuff. Yeah. Probably do it like, but I, I, I. I also have to be th thinking about the time I have available to spend on that versus other things. And that's really sort of the, the mental math I'm going through. Yeah. But I, you know, I don't know that this community's. Like, I don't feel like that's the case. Like I was gone for a week and it took me, you know, I, a little bit of time over the course of the last few days to sort of get caught up on important things. I'm not completely caught up on everything, but I also have learned to like, oh, this channel thinking about slack, right. This channel, I don't really need to, I can go catch up on that in one fell SW or mm-hmm I'll just clear it out. Cause I know that like going backwards and that doesn't make a lot of sense. Right. So that's how I think about

30:24

it.

Mike Rizzo 30:24

Yeah. And so like for me, when I say noisy, I, I mean, We I'm trying to avoid that distraction, right? Like you've got work, you need to get done. And so like creating, um, messages that that might not be that valuable, um, on a frequency that's just a little too high. Um, Means that there's a higher chance for that squirrel moment to happen. And I'm trying to reduce that, that level of squirrel um, for that lack of a better, uh, way to think about it. But, um, but at the same time, balancing, like. This should be fun. Like we should have some fun stuff to do periodically too. And if that's a recipe club, like cool, that's a recipe club. I just, you know, it's balancing the professional and comradery building opportunities, um, that I'm trying to, trying to figure out. I don't know. So Naomi, you look like you were gonna say something about noise. You're muted. You're literally muted. So you won't say anything about noise well,

Michael Hartmann 31:30

while she's working out her technology there, um, you're still, you're still muted. Naomi Okay. So for those listening, you're like we get this face, like we get to see this face of stuff. Um, anyway, so, um, We're one of the things I've noticed in at least one other community I'm in is that there is, um, they, they tend to do some experiments for different ideas on how to make the com like connect people in the community in different ways. And some of them have worked and some of them haven't. And, um, I think, I think they, the, the thing I liked about seeing that is not only did they try stuff, which is great, I think, but they also like, um, They just dropped. Um, They dropped the program if it wasn't working. So yeah. You know, and that's, that was kinda, so that was like, I, which I appreciate, because I think not only do you know community as a, if you think of it as a business, right. I think too many businesses have that fallacy of like the sun cost. Right. Put so much money into doing this thing. And when it's, obviously it's either not gonna be, you're not gonna reach your goal or it's not being as successful, or it's not that they're not willing to say, okay, I'm just gonna stop. Yeah, I think that so I can appreciate that.

Mike Rizzo 32:53

Yeah. We just wanna, we just want to avoid, you know, we wanna make sure the experience is as valuable as it can be without being overly burdensome to the, to the professional throughout the day and, and all that stuff. Naomi, I think we're still failing to have success. Nope. Yeah. We just lost you. We're super sad about it. if

Michael Hartmann 33:16

you can restart about it.

Mike Rizzo 33:19

Um, anyway, so, so yeah, I, you know, hopefully that answered some, some questions about the way I was thinking about MarketingOps.com, um, expect in the coming, you know, days or weeks, what have you for me to try to do a little bit of that run through? Um, maybe I'll do my own no BS demo. I don't know. I'm laughing at myself now. I sound like that would be good. Nope.

Michael Hartmann 33:46

so, um, Yeah. So I think that's a great idea. No BS demo. I mean, I do think that, so I was thinking about the, the whole conversation about blogs versus other formats and things like that. I do think there's something about like the video based ones. In particular, like if it's something that requires sort of a visual anyway, and I think demos of software in part like things like that make a lot of sense to be done. Mm-hmm on a video because it's a lot easier to see that it's, it's really, really hard to describe that in words that are gonna be. Understood in everybody's brain is the same way, but oh, okay. This is what you meant by this interactive thing. I'm gonna click here and then it just doesn't work. Yeah. So,

Mike Rizzo 34:30

yep. I totally agree. Um,

Michael Hartmann 34:33

anyway, back, Hey, she's back what?

Naomi Liu 34:36

There we go. Okay.

Michael Hartmann 34:39

So you yeah, well, for, for our listeners, what they don't know is that's usually me, that's having no problem. So, so true. That's funny. Right? Naomi, give us, give us, give it to us here. What was the wisdom you were gonna drop on

Naomi Liu 34:53

us? No, I was just gonna say that you took the words outta my mouth when it came to like the noise piece, right? Like, I, I, it depends for me. Like, I. Have this thing where it bothers me when, you know, I have notifications on slack and I feel like, oh, I have this anxiety where I need to like catch up and, and read everything cuz otherwise I just feel like, oh my gosh, I'm missing some words of Woodstone that, you know, especially on, on channels and communities where, um, they don't have the premium plans and things will just disappear after a period of time. Um, so I definitely feel that, but then there is kind of this cutoff or threshold point where at some point I'm just like, you know what. It's fine. It doesn't matter. I will just control I'll delete and then start fresh. And Monday's a new day and let me just catch up on everything that was missed. So yeah. You know, it depends on the week. Depends on how I feel too. I have, I

Mike Rizzo 35:43

have a, I have a super secret to share with the two of you right now that, that I'm kind of, but you're gonna tell everybody. Yeah, I'm gonna tell everybody that listens to this too. Hang on. um, I'm really hoping. I'm really, really hoping. That we might have actually found a way to, to like get to that historical knowledge, share, uh, that's happening in the slack channel without being like paying slack bajillions of dollars a month. Cuz we can't afford that. so we might have figured it out.

Michael Hartmann 36:17

Stage two. So I thought you were gonna tell, yeah, I thought you were gonna tell us something. You're basically giving us a cliff anger here. Thanks.

Mike Rizzo 36:24

so if we figured it out, uh, then you know, Things might be really interesting. Right? Cause we can actually go back and like reference those conversations that we had before and stuff like that.

Naomi Liu 36:37

Which is, are you going to fund it based on how people pay you to talk to you or

Mike Rizzo 36:45

No. No, it'll just be a part of the, are you charging us right now? Tell me. I, well, I think it'll become a part of the premium membership offering to be able to access the historical knowledge,

Naomi Liu 36:56

but we're grandfathered in, right.

Mike Rizzo 36:58

there's about, you know, how many grandfathered in people there probably already are. I'm, like I said, at the, earlier in this recording, I have a problem with servicing the business needs. That's OK. That's it's elevated. We're fine.

Michael Hartmann 37:16

Uh, okay, so I, can I, a couple of things. Well, I'll just stick with one. I, well, we could talk offline about this, like that program. You're talking about where you're connecting people. I curious about that a little bit about like the scope of the kinds of things you're talking about, but yeah. Um, Naomi, you brought up with your friend, the, the blog to other channel stuff. Um, when you all talked or maybe did you start thinking about, okay, how does this impact my business, right. Should we be thinking about. Um, doing, using different channels in different ways. Should we be doing different kinds of content?

Naomi Liu 37:55

I thought about that, but you know, at the same time, it's like, it's nice that there is a differentiator, like, you know, before bed, if I'm on social for a bit, or if I'm just reading the news or I'm on Reddit or whatnot, I don't necessarily want to consume mindless, like relaxation time things, the same way that I consume work stuff either. Right. Um, I don't know if I like that blend, right. Like, I wouldn't wanna start learning about, you know, um, velocity script and, uh, you know, Tracking fields and Salesforce on Instagram. Right? Like that's just not, I, I look, I like that differentiator and that I can just say, well, okay right now, if I wanna do a bit of self learning or if I need, you know, some help from the community, I know where to go look for it, as opposed to like, it's kind of just in my face all the time. So.

Mike Rizzo 38:46

You mean, you mean you don't wanna be working 24 7 across social media

Naomi Liu 38:50

platforms? No, well, I feel like, you know, in our industry too, it kind of sometimes feels like the line is a bit blurred though. Right?

Michael Hartmann 38:59

Uh, what do you mean when you, what industry do you mean your business or, or in like marketing ops, marketing

Naomi Liu 39:07

ops and marketing ops, right? Yeah, because in general, like, We're constantly looking at technology. Right. And we're evaluating it and we're seeing what people are doing. And I have a hard time separating. Like if I'm seeing, if I'm being served a really cool ad and, and in a really relevant and timely way, I kind of, in my mind, I'm trying to break down. Oh, how did they do that? Were they listening to me on my phone? Right, totally. Did I search for something? How do they know that I want these very specific pants in this color and they know my size.

Mike Rizzo 39:35

So

Michael Hartmann 39:37

that's funny. It is funny. You say that, cuz like, yeah. I think most people, when they get their inbox that aren't in this kind of world like that, if they get, start getting air quote spam, right. Non-targeted emails, which like they'll start to block people. And I like, I almost never do that partially because I wanna see what other people are doing. Right. So it's this mm-hmm like, so I think our behavior is probably a little different, I will say that. So, so part of the platform stuff that we use for recording all this and publishing the podcast started by me doing some research, then getting served up an ad on Facebook. Yeah, true. Which then prompted me. And, and so it was like, for me, it was a really, like, it was a, like a, a watershed moment or, you know, a pivot point where I'd be like, oh, maybe because I'd always been like, oh, for B2B, World, right. This, you know, Facebook, Instagram, that kind of stuff. Doesn't really make a lot of sense. And now I'm like, actually, if it's done well and done, right, I think it can make, make, be, be pretty effective.

Mike Rizzo 40:41

Yeah. That's what I keep hearing. But, you know, I just keep fighting the good fight that we shouldn't have to spend any ad dollars. And if the value of the community is good enough, it'll just grow. That's my goal. Well,

Michael Hartmann 40:54

yeah. And I was thinking more like for our listeners in terms of their, the businesses that they're a part of. Right. You know? Yeah.

Naomi Liu 41:02

Yeah. There is a podcast, um, called under the influence. And if you have never heard of it, you should go subscribe to it. Right now. It's a Canadian podcast. Um, Terry arrived even better and it's all about advertising and marketing and every topic is amazing. Honestly, I always, it's probably one of my favorite podcasts. That's not true crime um, but he had one episode, uh, recently, actually that was around, um, brands that don't advertise and how they're so successful. So company, for example, like Costco, they don't advertise. It's all word of mouth, community membership.

Michael Hartmann 41:37

You know, trader Joe's, trader Joe's

Mike Rizzo 41:40

mm-hmm Yeah. So

Naomi Liu 41:42

that's, I, it's funny under the influence, it's like inception a podcast promoting another podcast.

Mike Rizzo 41:48

I love it. When we do that, we we'll try to remember to link to the show notes because we have such a tight operation here on OpsCast.

Naomi Liu 41:57

If I remember

Mike Rizzo 41:58

I'll do this, we'll try to remember to link to it. I love that you, that you talk about the Costco model, cuz like that's that's so like totally the, the like line of thinking that I have when it comes to like, like one, one point for like all of the things, like that's what we want to create for, for this community. So, um, anyway, I, I, uh, I wanted to ah, dang it. There was. There was another thing that I wanted to tell you all about, but, uh, we'll have to do it on another episode. So that's another teaser

Michael Hartmann 42:32

Yeah,

Mike Rizzo 42:33

but I think let's, let's wrap this episode. Yes. Agreed. Uh, with a live, listen to our, our new rap single and then, oh, we're gonna wrap with a rap. Oh, we're not gonna rap. We're just gonna listen to it. So Michael, why don't you take us home and then I'm gonna go ahead and, uh, we're gonna play that song so people can just tune in whenever they. All right.

Michael Hartmann 42:54

So everyone, once again, thanks for joining us on the episode here. If you have feedback, comments, suggestions, wanna be a guest, or have a idea for a guest or a topic, please reach out to any of us. Um, we won't charge you. promise. It's all free. It's always free. It's all free. And, uh, with that, it's a. Bye everyone.

Mike Rizzo 43:17

Bye bye MarketingOps.com. Shout us here at MCN. Shout out Dara Alfonso. Shout us Scott Brinker. Shout out Jason, race, Leger and shout out Daniel Murray. Let's

Michael Hartmann 43:29

go. Mop

Mike Rizzo 43:30

thriller, no time for cheap filler marketing operations is a key pillar. Of the modern rev ops landscape type growth and strategy who wants to elevate here's a hot song for MarketingOps.com. Community led. Hope you get ahead. So log on space for the people. Hope you get the memo. If you wanna learn something new, go check out a demo over 10,000 more tech solutions you can use. If you're out of the loop, you run the risk of a Mo instead of jumping through. You can adopt a growth philosophy, implement it, understand unique business processes we're built by the community. Mo

Michael Hartmann 44:09

pros together,

Mike Rizzo 44:10

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