Michael Hartmann: 0:23

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Ops Cast brought to you by MarketingOps.com powered by the MO Pros. I'm your host, Michael Hartmann. Uh, I am solo today. Um, and this is our first time back in a while. So. Thanks for everyone for patience while we get this going. Hopefully this will be one that will be meaningful for all of you. I think it will, especially if you're in the middle of sort of considering career change, things like that. So let's get started. Today we are going to talk about building what our guest calls a Marketing Ops Portfolio. We'll get to that later. And joining us today is Joy Martinez. She is Senior Director of Marketing Operations with CS2, a consultancy. Joy was a 2022 Marketo Champion. She's Marketo Certified Solutions Architect and 8 time Marketo Certified Expert. With almost 20 years of experience in marketing, both in house and consulting, and the last 12 of those specifically in marketing operations, Joy brings a breadth and depth of experience in areas such as marketing operations strategy, business process, attribution and funnel reporting. Martech, Marketo Implementations, Demand Generation, ABM, and more. So she's got everything covered in MarketingOps, I think. She is also a founding member and ambassador for MarketingOps. com. Thank you. Joy is passionate about strengths based development, instructional design and training, and Joy's coaching and mentoring the next generation of Mops leaders. So Joy, welcome. And thank you for joining us today.

Joy Martinez: 1:41

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Michael Hartmann: 1:44

Yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm excited for this topic because I think, uh, as we get into, I can talk about it. I don't think that I did a great job of this early in my career. So, but let's, let's get, we'll get into this sort of slowly. First, uh, you know, I was kind of getting ready for our conversation today. And, um, one thing I noticed on your profile and LinkedIn is it looked like at one point you were studying to be a veterinarian or, um, Something in veterinary medicine. And I'm curious. So now I'm curious because I'm always curious about how people end up in marketing apps, but how did you go from. That to mark answer. Maybe you still do something with animals. I don't know.

Joy Martinez: 2:20

Yeah. Well, uh, never did finish that degree, but you're right. I started out at Michigan State. My freshman year is a pre veterinary major thought I was going to be a vet working with small animals and about a year into that. I realized. It was going to take me not just eight years, but more than eight years to finish my degree, um, with scheduling. And, uh, you actually don't even get into small animal science until, uh, you're basically in vet school past your undergrad. So, uh, I decided to change gears and go to my other option that I was always interested in, which was business. So I transferred schools actually to where my twin sister was at Central Michigan University and went into business. Um, and I majored in marketing, minored in advertising. And, you know, at the time marketing ops did not exist as we know today. So that doesn't show my age. Um, but yeah, I started in marketing, just kind of like a general marketing manager type role. I worked for a food broker here in Michigan. And then, uh, from there. Uh, way into marketing within financial services, uh, went back, uh, to, uh, marketing within, uh, actually a butter manufacturer. So I, I tend to really like a lot of the food industry, I guess, um, And then I got into tech, uh, and that's really where things changed with my career. Um, and that's really where I started doing more demand generation. I was a marketing programs manager, and so I was coming up with a strategy and executing against all of our demand programs, events, and trade shows. And then, uh, we had Pardot at the time and we're looking to migrate to Marketo. And we didn't have a marketing op department. And in fact, I think it was just called marketing automation at the time. I don't even think people use the terminology marketing ops at that time. So,

Michael Hartmann: 4:14

yeah, or, or, or as I was at one point, I was e

Joy Martinez: 4:18

marketing. Yeah. Yeah. E marketing. Exactly. Um, so yeah, at that time I. So I started, you know, having to actually execute like getting emails out the door and setting up and running my events and looking at performance. So as I was, you know, creating the strategy for demand gen, I also had to execute it. So I did a little bit of campaign ops and then, you know, started working more into true marketing op stuff with, you know, scoring and life cycle and that sort of thing. But yeah, that's what kind of started things. And from there on out, I pretty much have worked. Uh, for B2B tech companies, um, or in consulting. So, um, at some point in, in my in house experience, I said, Oh, let me, I'm interested in trying this, uh, with clients. And actually it was one of the Marketo, um, consultants that I had for a Marketo implementation that actually got me interested in consulting. And I thought, Hmm, this seems pretty cool to do this with clients and see all kinds of Marketo. I really kind of like leaned in heavy to the Marketo side of, uh, marketing automation. And so, yeah, that's where my career kind of took me. Eventually I, I landed at LeadMD as a consultant there and then worked a few in house roles before coming here to CS too. So, um, I've done some freelance consulting on my own as well. Um, I just really love marketing ops and decided I would. Retire the My Demand Gen hat and stick with marketing ops and marketing automation and, uh, do that side of things.

Michael Hartmann: 5:51

So that's great. No, it's like I'm always fascinated. I mean, we've had people with all kinds of different backgrounds. Like, I'm trying to remember who was it that we had on? It had like a linguistics background. It's just like, there's always these different ways that people get to this, this role. Um. So what, now I'm curious because you're a twin. I have sisters who are twins. Um, what is, does your sister do anything related to this?

Joy Martinez: 6:15

She does not. We actually have very different sides of the brain. Um, she has a degree in interior design as well as graphic and web design. She, uh, worked as an interior designer for a while. And then she, when she got her graphic design degree, she worked doing that and then she owned her own business. So, um, Yeah, she's very design focused. And while I feel like I have a design, I, um, she definitely excels that area for me. And she just doesn't understand, you know, all the things that I do on a daily basis, either, you know, we, we just really compliment each other pretty nicely.

Michael Hartmann: 6:50

That's nice. All right. Well, good, good, good. Um, well, thanks for sharing that. I mean, I think that's, um, one of the things that I think when. Because I've, I've talked to a few people over the past few years about like, you know, they referred to me or somebody who curious how to get into marketing ops and what does it mean? And, um, do they need, you know, what kind of experience they have? And I think these stories like this really tell us it really, if you've got the curiosity and the ability to learn and open to trying things right, you can just about anybody who Okay. Could get into this. So,

Joy Martinez: 7:22

yeah. Curiosity. So important for that with any career. So,

Michael Hartmann: 7:25

yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Well, so let's, let's get into this topic of building a marketing ops, marketing operations portfolio. Um, Okay. And let's like maybe start with a definition when you use that term, right? What is it? You mean that that that is,

Joy Martinez: 7:43

yeah, I mean, I think of it as a way to showcase and sell who you are. Uh, it's very, it's like, let me show you my mops chops, right? What do I got? So it's a way to showcase your skills, your strengths, the value and impact that you can bring to a company. I'm highlighting, you know. Key projects that, you know, you felt were pretty impressive or that you played a key role in, um, and really just to highlight, you know, your core experience. Um, and so, yeah, I look at it just as a way to, you know, showcase what you can do, um, and how you do it. And, you know, we can, we'll get into the conversation, I'm sure of, well, how do I format that? What should I include? And all that, but yeah, short end of it is just a way to showcase who you are.

Michael Hartmann: 8:29

So it's always, um, I think I mentioned early on, right? This is something that I didn't do early in my career. I think I think I learned later in my career. And when I coach people now or mentor people now, I tell them to start keeping track of the kinds of things that are accomplishments, especially if they're measurable. But this reminded me of like, your sister probably has this right look book. Yeah, she does. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I think that's the idea for the for our maybe we have audience members who don't know what a lookbook is, but almost every graphic designer I know has some form of a, of a lookbook, which is examples of the work that they've done that they can use. So it usually typically complements a resume, right. So sort of the, the proof of the work. Um, so yeah, I think that's, that's such a great advice. Um, so yeah, let's, let's talk a little bit about like, You know, I, I, you know, one of the things like for me, like I started late in my career doing that and I was, I was like, what should I include? What should I not include? Um, you know, uh, what do you, what do you kind of, what's your recommendation on how to, like, what kinds of things should I include? Um, I was talking to somebody earlier today, just in general about, Uh, a mentor of mine, um, that, you know, one of the things that I struggle with is sort of promoting what my, me and my team are doing right internally. Um, and it's, it, it's tends to be activity based, which is not what I want it to be, but that's kind of part of the jobs, right? We were just kicking on stuff. But. Uh, that doesn't sound like the kind of stuff I'd want to necessarily put in my portfolio. Right.

Joy Martinez: 10:06

Right. And you can kind of, uh, that actually brings up a good point about kind of thinking of you, you may almost have a couple versions of a portfolio as well. You may have sort of an internal portfolio that you may have to sort of like showcase the value of what your team is doing and things like that, which definitely could help sometimes also like get you head count and things like that when you need to, when you can show that. You've got, you know, more going on than what you can probably support and stuff. Uh, but then this is a little bit more probably focused around the external portfolio that you would use a lot of times in hiring processes when you're interviewing. Um, and I like to think of it too, is like, even if you, even if nobody asks to see samples of your work or sample projects, still having a portfolio is valuable because it gets you thinking and in the mindset of. Key projects that you could bring up when somebody says, Oh, tell me about a time that you did this. Uh, tell me about, uh, attribution project you worked on, or tell me how you handled, you know, this particular challenge. And by having those examples already in your portfolio thought of, those are the things that you're going to mention in the interview, right? You know, so it's like, Prep for any type of interview, whether you're interviewing right now or not, at some point, and I'd say probably 98 percent of people, you know, change jobs every like, you know, three to seven years, like, You're most of the time, especially, you know, if you're in your twenties or early thirties right now, like you're not going to stay at the same company your entire career. I feel like that was a lot more popular, you know, years ago, but I just, or like my husband has been at the same company for 25 years, so we won't count him, but he's in a totally different profession. Um, and so at some point you will be interviewing and at some point you will need to try to sell, you know, like your expertise and skills. And so. Having this ready, whether they look at it or not, will help you speak to it, you know, when the time comes.

Michael Hartmann: 12:07

So you, you said something in there, I don't remember exactly what it was, but it made me think of something I saw. That maybe as a corollary, um, earlier this week, I saw somebody posted it that they just got a new job, same company, right? Different title. And I remember looking at that title going, I don't know what that means. So, um, talk to me a little bit about like, and I see this a lot, right? Where people have titles. Uh, even to the point where like, if they're a kind of company that has very rigid sort of titles, like senior, senior analyst two, right? Two. Yeah. With numbers at the end. Um, that's not what this one, that's not what this one was, but it was actually more of a senior role. And I was like, I don't know how to translate that into what does that mean you do. Right. Um, I could, could go off on a total tangent and talk about how bad B2B websites are too, about saying what the company does. We don't need to go there. But so I think one of the things I think you said made me think like it's really important to take those projects or whatever, whatever those things are that you've done your portfolio and make sure that they make sense of somebody who's maybe. Not familiar with the particulars of the organization where you

Joy Martinez: 13:15

did that work. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Cause if they haven't heard of that title or they don't know what that means, or they haven't heard of the company, you know, if you're looking to stand out and have somebody understand what the heck that you did, having those key projects outlined is important. And I know we're not really getting into formats yet, but like, I mean, this is all stuff that you should have. You know, on your LinkedIn profile as well, you know, a lot of recruiters these days, use your LinkedIn and, you know, we'll look at profiles and things like that when they come up in the search and, you know, there's different ways to weave it into your LinkedIn profile, you know, you can actually, like, I actually have a Google slide deck that I can share if somebody requests, but I always, you know, like this podcast, when it airs, I will add it to my portfolio of my speaking engagement section, right. You know, so that way I don't forget to over time. What the heck I did, you know, um, and if I'm trying to book more speaking engagements in the future or more podcasts or whatever, you know, now I have sort of a portfolio tailored to that. So

Michael Hartmann: 14:18

it's interesting. And, um, does this, do you think this overlaps a little bit with. the idea of like developing a personal brand, right? For

Joy Martinez: 14:28

sure. Yeah, actually. Um, so side note that I didn't put in my intro, but I actually did strengths coaching with entrepreneurs. So like the Gallup CliftonStrengths assessment, big fan years ago, big fan as well. Um, and The one thing that I had was a like an email course called to discover your personal brand. And it all was based on your skills, strengths and experience. And so, yeah, this goes right into that. I mean, when you're thinking about how you want to brand yourself, right, your personal brand, it's how you represent, you know, how you show who you are and why you do what you do, how you act the way you act. Um, You know, what kind of cool stuff have you done, right? And you're going to build that brand on LinkedIn, hopefully, right? Especially if you're looking to progress in your MOPs career over time. And then as well, you know, you can have supporting things. Like I have Google Slides that have like really in depth things with visuals and, you know, stuff like that. Um, And you kind of mentioned like, well, what do we put in a portfolio? So I'll tell you some of the things that I recommend that I have in mind. Um, we'll get into the meat of it here. So a, of course, think of some of your best projects or work, right? So when you think of marketing ops specifically, you know, let's say you love doing ABM or you've done a lot of attribution work, or you've worked on lead scoring, or you are heavy into campaign ops, whatever. You know, focus that you've had, think through, well, what is relevant, um, and not just where you are now, but where you want to go, right? So what is relevant? What's recent? I would just start with what's recent and work your way back if you need to, right? And you know, if you've been in this for 15 years, no reason to start with the first job you ever had, like just start with now.

Michael Hartmann: 16:18

Okay. That was going to be one of my questions. Like how far back do you go if you're like into your career? I

Joy Martinez: 16:24

mean, I, I don't really have much probably from my first job, but I do have stuff from my second job on. Um, and so I have,

Michael Hartmann: 16:35

I don't have all example, like work examples in this case, but things I've listed as accomplishments, you know, right? That I've had. I've kind of added to that and it's started. I think the oldest one is probably going back 15, 20 years

Joy Martinez: 16:48

at this point. Yeah, yeah, about the same for me. And you may have certain core competencies, if you will, that like you want to highlight more where you might have bigger or more projects around. Um, so over time, you kind of could call out some things that maybe aren't You know, where you want to be going and stuff, but I think if you think of it sort of like a case study, so, you know, probably a lot of us work, you know, for B to B to B type companies where you don't go to a website, you download a case study, like what's on that case study, it's usually framing up. What was the business objective of this project? What were the challenges or pain points that we were dealing with? What were the solutions deployed? And what were the results achieved? So, you know, if you kind of think of when you are mentioning in your portfolio what your best projects were, you got to kind of mention those things. And so you got to set a little bit of the context and then show what you did and maybe the process that you use to go about it. And then what were the results? Um, so any kind of stats, reports, uh, we have a saying here, a CS to always end every project with a report, uh, or a dashboard. Um, you've always want to have analytics around what you're doing and in order to measure and know if that was successful, you likely had a business objective or metrics at the beginning, right? So anything that you can do to kind of show like. The before state, the during state, and the after state is what you want to highlight when it comes to projects.

Michael Hartmann: 18:27

So, so this, I have a kind of a side question here, um, and part of it's because I've just been listening to a series of episodes on the Freakonomics podcast, which I'm a big fan of, um, about failure. So, um, curious, like, what do you think about. including in that portfolio projects that maybe didn't go as planned, but kind of maybe using them as a, as a way to highlight how you've learned from those. And, you know, um, from that, I'm just curious. I mean, I'm, I think there's something from that too. I,

Joy Martinez: 19:02

I I'd say I don't necessarily maybe have examples of that in my own personal portfolio, but I could definitely see how that would help. Especially when interviewing because you're usually always going to get the question around a weakness or you're going to get a question around a challenge and how did you handle it. And so it's a little bit more situational or soft skill related so I do think that it's important not just to show your hard technical skills in your portfolio but also your soft skills and how you handle situations how you, you know, work with a difficult person or another. Department in your company and how did you gain alignment on that thing. And so I think having an example, even if it's not a full project to kind of walk through of some situations like that is definitely helpful. And at least as an outline, if you are interviewing, because You are going to get those questions like hands down. Somebody's going to ask you that. So having some examples thought through up front will make you quicker on your feet not stumble like through, you know, answering that in

Michael Hartmann: 20:07

an interview. Okay, so next. So now I have a sort of. You've kind of outlined the, I guess, structurally, which to me implies like having something, you know, on a, I think you mentioned having a Google slide deck, right? Like a page per thing, right? Where you have that structure. Um, so that feels like something that you could like, Um, is there sort of an important piece of that, which I think you hinted at of be able to then take that sort of structured stuff, but tell it as a

Joy Martinez: 20:43

story? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of why I say, like, also set things up as a case study, because it is telling a story, like, and I mean, your portfolio as a whole should be telling a story, but you can tell stories within, you know, each of the projects or situational analysis that, you know, you're, you're putting in there. So, like, for me, um, I have mine in Google Slides because I can then just supply the link and I can remove access later if I want, like, if I'm, You know, interviewing and I send it to somebody that requests samples for something like one time I interviewed and they were like, Oh, you know, we need this role to also know how to like write emails. Can you show us some of your work of writing? And it's like, well, sure, I have a million emails and blogs and content and guides and this and that, that I've authored, like Let me send you the example and then later if you get the role or you don't like you can remove that access, but yeah, I mean, it's all about telling a story. Um, I mean, it's, uh, I, I call it, uh, I actually had a program when, when I was doing strengths, uh, coaching called showcase your strengths, because I mean, in, in you're selling and showcasing. What you do really well. Um, and what's like kind of innate and natural to you. And that all requires storytelling.

Michael Hartmann: 22:03

Yeah, well, it's, it's interesting. Uh, I was sort of smiling there a little bit as you said something because it's like, um, this is something I tell people. do mentoring and stuff too, is that part of the value of having that is because, uh, essentially you're acting as a salesperson, right? You're your own sales. For yourself. And I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with that. And we've had episodes where we've talked about. How to sell the marketing ops and we've had them counterpoint all that and I think people who've not been in sales Have very especially marketers have a very I think a strong opinion about Typically not good or it's either really good or really bad, right? And some of it depends on the specifics people, but you know I think the idea of selling is a little bit uncomfortable, especially for yeah I think the type of people who end up in marketing ops. I think they're like, yeah, my work should stand for itself But, but I, like I said, like, I, I know I, I need to do more of that. Right. And I recognize it and I have been in sales and it's, um, I think that's one of the things I learned is like part of, part of what you're doing is you're always selling yourself, whether you know

Joy Martinez: 23:11

it or not. And I mean, I think that's why even, even having a portfolio, even if you have this amazing portfolio, you know. You still need an interviews and things like that you and even if you're thinking of it not as interviewing even if you're in your role and you need to sell yourself internally or you're hoping to get a promotion or whatever if you a situation where you need to sell yourself. That's why I always layer in. And in fact, I have an entire slide in my Google slide portfolio for my strengths. And so I have my top 10 like Clifton strengths. And because your strengths are very unique and natural to you and like, It is very rare that somebody has your unique order and set of strengths. And so it's not just about what the work that you've done, it's about how you as a person execute it, how you strategically think, how you build relationships, and how you influence others. And so You know, layering in your skills of what you're really good at, the work and experience that you've had with your strengths, um, definitely like creates just a more like polished package, I would say, like for your portfolio and allows you to more easily sell yourself. And the more that you understand your strengths and who you are as a person, the easier is to sell quote unquote, like I don't consider myself a salesperson, but when I look back at my career, I have had tons of like, Almost like client success, CSM type. Things where I've had to upsell or, you know, sell like additional things. And I've never have had a sales title in my life. Like I've never been quote unquote in sales, but I've always had to work on selling something or sell myself. And so, and so I saw that sounds bad if we take, but you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it's so important and, you know, like. I'll have a section too for, um, speaking engagements, a section for awards and recognition, a section for my memberships and certifications, because that's just one element of who I am, right? And, and how I can bring, uh, value to an organization.

Michael Hartmann: 25:29

So something just occurred to me that I don't think we've covered yet. Um, and so I keep throwing new stuff at you, but, um, uh, as, as a, as you progress in your career, if you get into leadership roles and people like, how do you, how do you, um, cause very often you get questions if you're interviewing, right. About. For a senior role, like how, like tell us about a situation with a difficult employee or, um, or how, what's your style or what, how do you, do you have that kind of stuff captured in your portfolio? Would you recommend it if you're the kind of person who either is in a leadership role or you want to be in a

Joy Martinez: 26:06

leadership role? Yeah, actually, I mean, it kind of goes back to when I said. Don't just think of it of where you are right now. Think of it is where you want to go. So if you currently don't manage anybody, but you do want to get into people management, or you're not part of leadership team, but you want to progress to a leadership team, you know, you should, I always just 100 percent I will say this all day long, understand your strengths and what they mean, not just the words like not just like, Oh, my talent theme on the CliftonStrengths is Relator. Like nobody knows what that means. So you have to understand deeply the description and what that means to you and how it kind of like, uh,

Michael Hartmann: 26:48

embodies you, how it comes to life,

Joy Martinez: 26:50

how it comes to life, exactly. So really understand that because if somebody were to ask me, well, what kind of leader are you? I could rattle off without hesitation because I know my strengths because I know that's how it comes to life when I manage people. And, um, you know, like. That element, like, even though it's like one slide out of my huge portfolio is. It's probably one of the most important things and in, and not just putting like what they are, but putting descriptions and describing like what they are for somebody. I mean, even on my LinkedIn profile, I don't have enough room to describe all of them, but I have a link to all the descriptions that somebody can go to if they're like, well, what does that mean? And then they can click and go to the link of descriptions and then they'll have a better idea of who I am.

Michael Hartmann: 27:42

Well, and I know like me as a people manager, like I've, it took me a while to figure out what kind of, what my, um, I don't know, style's not the right word, but like principles that I like to live by as a, as a leader. Um, and so, um, again, I was just earlier today talking to one of my mentors and it was sort of describing some scenarios in the last couple of jobs where I had people who had, you know, sort of personal stuff going on and how I handled that with them to build trust with them, even to the point of telling. My senior leadership that I've Promise them I wouldn't say things unless they agree to it, right? Um, so like to me, like build, like having a trustful relationship with my employees is an important piece to me and it's one that I really don't want to compromise on. So it's, it's one of those kinds of things. And I, you know, there are others, but that's like. Yeah. from today actually that came up. Um,

Joy Martinez: 28:41

and when I hear you say that too, uh, like for me, it's the same. And I know that I have Relator in my top strengths, which really likes to build deep relationships. And I like to get to know people and I crave that trust and I make a really Easy environment for somebody to also trust me. Um, so you don't like, even though I'm like, oh, that's related. Oh, that's this like, and I had like name people's strengths just by hearing I say I'm in

Michael Hartmann: 29:06

my head trying to remember what my top five are. But I, I think relator is in there somewhere. I was going to say you might have relator

Joy Martinez: 29:13

like me.

Michael Hartmann: 29:15

But I don't remember what, I don't remember the others. I mean, I did it so long ago, but I, we could maybe, maybe just kind of, I mean, I almost want to switch to this a little bit, cause one of the things, Before we, before we go, though, in terms of the portfolio kind of concept, and we've covered a lot of ground, we've talked about, you know, how, how much time you should do, like, if you haven't started it, don't feel bad, right, that kind of stuff, start building it. Is there anything that you want to make sure our listeners heard about the portfolio stuff that we haven't already covered?

Joy Martinez: 29:45

Um, you know, I think just in terms of, um, always consider your audience and like what your goal is with your portfolio. So I have one big portfolio, but depending on what I want to use it for and who my audience is, I might slice and dice it up in different ways to deliver it into, you know, it's, if you think of like content marketing, like you have your big rock content and what kind of pebbles am I going to create from that? Right. It's the same philosophy. So like. If I am, you know, showcasing, um, you know, my speaking on podcasts or, uh, events that I've spoke at or what have you, like, I will just, you know, take that section and highlight, you know, my, my speaking gigs. If I want to highlight, like when that interview, they said, can you send me writing examples? Sure. Let me pull together all my content stuff, you know. So think of the audience, think of what you're using it for, um, and make sure you're envisioning where you want to go. Don't just put things you've done in your past, but if you think about where you want to go, one tip that I would have is whatever that next role is that you want, whether it be now or in five years, like, Go read job descriptions of those types of titles on LinkedIn and just see what kind of keywords they're using for different experience and strengths and skills and things that they're listing that they're looking for in that ideal candidate. And think about, Oh, have I, do I have projects that relate to that? Do I have specific skills I need to gain in order to stand out when I want to do that? So those are the types of things that you can be looking for and trying to put into your portfolio. Of course, don't fudge it. Like go get that experience if you need the experience, go get that skill. If you need to get the skill, if they're looking for a certain certification, go get that. This is not work of fiction. This is not false info. This is like, you got to put truth and stuff. So. But look at what that is because you may be like, Oh, well, yeah, I've done that. Or, Oh, I have a project where I've done that. Or, you know, even thinking out of like different teams you've worked with and you're trying to highlight, you know, that you're able to work with another team and gain alignment, how you get buy in internally, like which happens in marketing ops a lot, you got to get buy in for different projects or buy in for new technology or whatever. And so, like, you know, just read through those job descriptions and see what things apply. you that you can add to your portfolio. So if you can't think of things off hand, just kind of go through and see like, Oh, they're mentioning they want somebody with ABM. Okay. What have I done with ABM? Like, let me think through that. And so, yeah, that's what I'd kind of just recommend as a tip. If you're looking to just get started and you can't, you got like a creative block on how to get started.

Michael Hartmann: 32:34

And I think what you just described, right. Um, or you're hinting at is kind of a good segue to where I wanted to go. Um. Which is I think you can also not only can use this as a way of sort of documenting what you've accomplished and what you've learned, what you've done, uh, to to look for new things, and it can also help you sort of reflect on. You know, if I both in terms of like, here's where I am, here's where I want to go, right, have a little bit of your putting your own putting your own career plan together, um, but also identifying what are the gaps, right? So to get from here to there, what are the things I need, which then takes me to then a little bit of like, and you mentioned all the coaching and mentoring that you've done, right? So do you think that this could be used as a kind of a tool for, for, Um, whether it's with your direct manager, if you've got one who, who's, who you would think it would be a good as a coach or mentor or somebody else, right, independent, it feels to me like this would be a good resource as a starting point for that kind of

Joy Martinez: 33:34

conversation. Yeah, for sure. Because a lot of times, um, choosing a mentor doesn't necessarily have to be somebody, you know, really well, it doesn't have to be somebody you used to report to or, you know, a mentor can really be anybody and a lot of people like to mentor and so finding a mentor. You know, if you haven't, definitely go do it. But this definitely is a good starting conversation because, you know, especially if they're mentoring you in, you know, your career growth or just, you know, expanding in your current position or let's say you're struggling with something and you want, you know, their insights and advice around something, you know, being able to show, you know, who you are and what you've done and, you know, What you're skilled at or maybe what you're not and kind of using that as a starting point, I think, is helpful and, um, you know, for me, like, personally, a lot of my mentors have been, um, people I used to report to, but, but not always, and Uh, I have a couple of people that I kind of mentor myself, um, on a regular basis. And they are people that used to report to me. Um, but it doesn't have to be like that. Like it could be that, let's say you want to move up into leadership and you see somebody being the type of leader that you strive and like crave to be, and it could be somebody in a totally different department outside of marketing that has nothing to do with marketing. It could be, you know. whatever. And so, um, yeah, having this portfolio and being able to show, and I think just like show who you are and the things that you've done, um, really helps them, I guess, be able to better guide and coach you, uh, as a mentor.

Michael Hartmann: 35:18

Yeah. No, I, I think it's been. It's one of those things for me, I've, I've had a number of different mentors still have some currently over time, right? So they kind of tend to have a beginning and an end, um, in almost all cases, um, to the point where I've, um, I've told people, I think, I think just honestly, like, I think we're, you know, we've kind of got what we could out of this relationship. I still want to be. Um, and it's been helpful for me to the point where a few years ago I sort of made a conscious decision to go seek out mentors, um, and, and to get multiple. And in fact, I was thinking of it like a personal, uh, board, right? Um, and I was very intentional about looking for people who are a little more experienced, right, than me. I actually look for people younger than me, and I look for people who are peers, right? I wanted a mix. Um, and I was, I was, I was. The one about younger, I think was really, I don't even remember why I did that. I think maybe I read an article or something, but it was been one of the most valuable mentors I've had. As I've gotten to the point where I have people who are younger than me, significantly younger than me working for me, um, it's been super helpful for me to get a perspective. Yeah. So

Joy Martinez: 36:37

that's what I feel like, uh, I actually, uh, when I was thinking about what we were talking about today, I actually wrote down perspective because that's what one thing mentorship has given me as well is just different perspectives. And I mean, you know, like here at CS2 we're, you know, fairly small agency and, you know, I'm the second oldest and it's, you know, the owners are younger than me. Right. You know, I have no problem working with and for people that are younger than me. And sometimes, you know, you know, Uh, different generations, different people, like different work styles. They'll bring you different perspective. Um, and that I feel like is really invaluable just because it opens your eyes to, you know, new ways of thinking and new ways of doing and, uh, you know, how to handle different situations that you. Naturally, you have your own set of strengths and would handle it one way, but hearing somebody else with a whole different set of strengths, you know, and how they handle it, like, uh, I, I'm always telling Charlie here, uh, Charlie Saunders, uh, one of the founders of CS2, I'm always telling him, I really enjoy your, he has command and his Clifton strengths, top strengths, and I'm always, uh, liking the way that he just, uh, makes decisions and, you know, doesn't ho hum about things, you know, he's, Pretty decisive. And I really like that about him. And so I'm always like, okay, let me put on my like command hat today. Like, you know, if I need to, cause you know, as in consulting, it's like, oh, well we could do it this way or we could do it this way or we could do it this way. And it depends. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of that, but at the end of the day. You know, companies hire us to, you know, help them make decisions and, you know, absolutely bring the right strategy, not all strategies to them. So, um, yeah, it's, it's pretty cool to, you know, just even have, you know, informal, I guess, mentors that you, you know, and, and it's really for me just getting to know people and how they tick and you start observing behavior and how they act and stuff. And, you know, you can learn a lot about people. What to do and how you want to handle things and kind of form it, you know, your own way of doing it. But I've even had leaders that are definitely not mentors, but leaders that I have learned what not to do from. And that has been serious, just as valuable as what to do. Right. And so, um, yeah, that's kind of interesting, but for, for me, it's been, uh, mentorship has been a key in my career. So I'm

Michael Hartmann: 39:02

curious, do you think, uh, uh, do you think you've gotten more value, uh, from mentors for you or when you've been mentoring other people?

Joy Martinez: 39:13

Um, I enjoy mentoring other people a lot. Um, I even have, uh, it's been 13 years that I've been in. The big brother, big sister program. Technically we've aged out and we're out of the program now, but anyway, she was in fifth grade when I met her. She's now going to be 24 years old. So, you know, it's, uh, I've always just loved mentorship and, you know, we truly are like sisters or like a mother daughter relationship now. And I mean, same, same with. You know, people management is something I really enjoy and the reason I enjoy it is because I love the mentoring and coaching part of it. I love that. So, um, you know, yeah, it's, I think

Michael Hartmann: 39:56

you and I could hang out for a while. Yeah.

Joy Martinez: 39:58

Yeah. And people management is not for everybody because it's not difficult. It can actually be very hard sometimes.

Michael Hartmann: 40:04

It's, it's extremely hard, but it can be very rewarding as well. And it's, it's a whole different set of skill. I was recently mentoring somebody who is going from a, individual contributor to a new leadership role, um, people leadership role. And we happened to have a conversation like the Friday before she's starting a new job at the following week. And I was asking her like, so what are you going to do next week? And it's a marketing ops role. Um, I might dig into the systems. I'm going to figure things out. I was like, Hmm.

Joy Martinez: 40:35

Nope, nope, you're not. Save that for

Michael Hartmann: 40:41

later. No, I actually, I love, I love mentoring people who are considering moving into a people management role or, or early into a role like that, because I think, um, it's a really sort of a sad state of affairs that most companies do a terrible job of. Um, and then, and then getting them ready for it, I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's really bad and I went through that. Right. My first, first time as a, as a people manager was at best, I'd say it was a mixed bag of results. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cause

Joy Martinez: 41:15

a lot of times you're just doing it cause you just fall into it. Right. Kind of how like. We've fallen into marketing operations. We have fallen into leadership and it's, uh, it's not for the faint of heart. No, no, it's not. So,

Michael Hartmann: 41:27

um, I've got stories of things that I never would have expected I would have to deal with, but that I've had to deal with. Yeah. Um, that I can't really share. Right. Yeah. Um, but I, so it's interesting. So I, not only do I host the podcast, right. I listened to a lot of podcasts. I was just listening to Adam Grant. Uh, his podcast recently, and he had, he just had an episode about, uh, sort of like the myths and realities of what mentorship should really be like, um, and it was really good when I'll see, I'll see if we can try to find that, uh, link and put included in the show notes and maybe we should put it to a link to the, uh, StrengthsFinder, um, as well. Yeah, that'd be great. Um, I love doing that with my teams and sharing results and it's usually eye opening for people like, Oh, that's why you handled that situation that way.

Joy Martinez: 42:16

Right? Yeah. I used to have all, uh, anybody that reports to me, I've always had them do it. Um, but when I came on here at CS2, uh, about a year and a half ago, we, um, had a company offsite about a month after I joined. Uh, we all took it and I gave a workshop, um, of like our company strengths and to understand each other and who has what and like, it was, it was so incredible. It was incredible.

Michael Hartmann: 42:39

I've done that with, I've done that, uh, haven't done, I've done that with my teams probably for the last four or five jobs, but I've gone through at least twice group. Large group things with Myers Briggs, a similar

Joy Martinez: 42:53

thing, right? Yeah, disk profile, you know, there's lots out there. I've

Michael Hartmann: 42:57

taken a disk profile, I couldn't tell you what it was. Yeah. So I don't remember any of that, but yeah, I think it's, the value is good. I was, I was, I was a skeptic for a long time about those things. But

Joy Martinez: 43:12

yeah, I really enjoy it. Um, one thing I was gonna mention that I forgot to mention earlier that I do include and that I would really recommend if people don't is, um, testimonials, positive feedback, plant love notes, LinkedIn recommendations, like, you know, If you've done a cool project or, you know, and don't wait to get LinkedIn recommendations till you leave a job like do it while you're working with people while people know how you're working and might remember to mention something, you know, um, and, you know, save that stuff like, you know, I have tons of, you know, really cool client testimonials, you know, and even if it's like a little slack message if it's not super vague and, um, You know, it's something that I think might be cool and meaningful to have, you know, I save that. And that's not only like a cool, if you need a pep talk for yourself, you know, like it feels good, right? Um, but it can just have sort of that like third party validation of who you are. Your work that you've done and that does make a difference to kind of just add credibility. Like, you're not just saying this, like now we have credible third party sources that are saying it as well. So, yeah, yeah.

Michael Hartmann: 44:28

Well, good. This is a, I've, this has been a fun conversation, Joy. I really appreciate it. Uh, if folks want to catch up with you or follow you or find out what you're doing, what's the best way for them to do that. Yeah,

Joy Martinez: 44:39

I prefer LinkedIn. So linkedin. com slash in slash joy. Martinez MBA. There

Michael Hartmann: 44:46

you go. All right. Let's try to drop that. If we don't get in the show notes. I know when I when I post about the this going live, we'll make sure that you get connected to that as well. Well, joy. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Um, so all of our, our audience again, thanks for their patience on getting more of these, uh, episodes out. We're still, we're still around. It's just been a busy season for a lot of us. Um, and with that, we will see you next time. Bye everyone.