Speaker 1: 0:23

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by MarketingOpscom, powered by all those more pros out there. I'm your host, michael Hartman, joined today by two co-hosts I got both Naomi Liu and Mike Rizzo. Hey, hey, are we all recovered? Are we all recovered from Mopsapalooza 2024?

Speaker 2: 0:46

We're two weeks post-event.

Speaker 1: 0:48

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 0:48

Yeah, we're feeling okay, I feel good we're a little bit of time away.

Speaker 1: 0:51

It's been a while since all three of us have been I know together right it has been too long, too long, yeah way too long, for sure. So yeah and uh hard to believe. We're like approaching four years of doing this. Can you believe that?

Speaker 2: 1:09

Yeah that blows my mind.

Speaker 1: 1:13

Yeah, okay. Well, let's get into this, because we've got a great guest today. So joining us today is Kelly Robinson to talk about how our workplace environment impacts our work and our teams. So you may be wondering how's that tie in? We'll make sure that comes clear, but Kelly has designed experiences in offices for several influential tech companies through her career creating conscious workplaces for Airbnb, soundcloud, headspace and many others. Her mission has been to deepen our connection to the ultimate space we all share that is our planet. In the wake of the 2020 pandemic, kelly turned her focus from the workplace to our homes makes sense. Helping households navigate the new normal of working from home through online design courses and private sessions. Beyond her work in design, she is a spiritual seeker, driven by a deep desire to nurture the human spirit and strengthen our relationship with our planet through the way we experience built environments. I almost said speaker instead of seeker, but you are also a speaker too. So, kelly, thank you for joining us today.

Speaker 4: 2:06

Thanks for having me everyone.

Speaker 1: 2:08

Yeah, we're excited. So you and Naomi are both in Vancouver, right, you haven't like. I know you spend part of your time outside of Vancouver, but you're there, I'm in Canada.

Speaker 3: 2:18

Nice, love it. It's just been over a year, I think. Right, we have a mutual friend that reached out to me last year and was like hey, I have this friend and I just I think you guys were totally vibe and so we set up a lunch date and, yeah, he was right, hit it off right from the beginning. That's funny. A play date, an adult play date yes. That actually sounds kind of bizarre, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:44

I'm saying that like wait a minute. When it's kids, it's totally fine. I just had them say that I'm like wait a minute when it's kids.

Speaker 3: 2:49

It's totally fine. Yeah, no, we went for lunch. Okay, all right.

Speaker 1: 2:53

We're going to go with that. You supped All right, sounds good. Well, it's great to have you here. So I know I shared a quick rundown of your background experience, kelly, but maybe if you could take us through that in a little bit more detail, I think in particular like how the whole COVID lockdown, all that kind of stuff, impacted what you were doing and what you're doing now.

Speaker 4: 3:17

Yeah, absolutely Happy to take you through that. So I guess, kind of backing up a little bit, what most people might not realize or know when they look at my design portfolio is that I'm actually an autodidactic designer, so I didn't study designer architecture in the traditional sense. Really, I've been more intuitive the whole way through. So my background is actually more about hospitality and really focused on the lens of like nurturance really nurturing humans in any space, any size, any spectrum. So that really, you know, bringing all of that together and landing at Airbnb back in 2010, when we were just 10 people working in the founder's apartment, I just knew that if I were to treat this space, you know, in a really hospitable way and the people as such, that I just had the sense that things would come and they did. So, you know, the company grew very fast and then I was designing spaces for companies all over the world and had a pretty colorful 10-year career going wherever the projects were to really create spaces that nurtured the humans inside of them, and fast forward to 2020, when the entire world changed in the matter of like a week.

Speaker 4: 4:27

I also knew that the design brief of our homes essentially changed overnight, that our homes that used to hold us through regular life pre-COVID. It was a completely different need that we had out of our homes at that point, and so that's when I started shifting and trying to figure out how can I possibly help at this time when everyone's freaking out, including myself, how can our homes now become the most nurturing they can be to kind of get us through this difficult time? So, yeah, I started offering free design sessions through Zoom. People would show me their homes through Zoom, through zoom, and I couldn't believe how helpful that I was able to be for people and how people also intuitively knew that like they needed to change their environment so that they could adapt to, like, the global change that was happening. Um, and they got so much relief from it and that was a really exciting moment to help and learn how to, how these design skills could kind of expand and be used in other ways and help people through hard times.

Speaker 2: 5:29

So, yeah, I, uh I have read like what was the. Is there like a most radical change like story you can tell? Like for me, my wife and I are looking at doing a room addition right now because my children need to like have their own rooms and the room I'm currently sitting in is one of the other rooms. So we need to like figure out a way to either I go rent office space right or I invest in the property and try to like add on a little space or something, but so that would be an extreme thing and this kind of thing was totally normal during COVID, you have to remember.

Speaker 4: 6:09

Some people were alone, freaking out in their space. They got let go from their jobs. Some people were suddenly had to work full time and manage two young kids. It's a reprioritization of the real estate that you have access to already. So, yeah, your situation is incredibly normal, one that comes to mind. One of my clients had this storage closet that was just full of junk and she was let go from her tech job during COVID and she ended up transforming that old storage closet, moving everything out, clearing away a bunch of stuff she didn't need and turning it into an art studio. And now she is working full time as an artist, making double what she made on her tech salary, just because she reclaimed this space and, yeah, came back to what she really wanted to become.

Speaker 2: 6:57

So yeah, lots of stories of transformation through that time yeah. Yeah, I could have definitely used your help.

Speaker 4: 7:04

Still here if you need support.

Speaker 2: 7:06

Yeah, you might get a call from you.

Speaker 1: 7:16

I think it's so. So to me it's like I think it's um, I mean I'll, I think, clearly right. That whole time was a really tough one for a lot of reasons and I think still we've got the outcomes of it, but I was really hopeful that it would bring about some positive things too, right. I think this, like because we got to see people in their real too, right. I think this like because we got to see people in their real lives, right. I think this like awareness of the, like this real life component, the, the thing I worried about and I still know people who do this, myself included like is there's, when you're doing this work from home thing, it's really hard to separate okay I'm now working versus I'm now at home, like I'm. I'm curious, like I know, like some people they have a space and they go in there I'm working, I go out, I'm not working, but not everybody has that ability. Like, how? Like from a design standpoint, I'm curious, like how did you help people through that?

Speaker 4: 8:03

Absolutely there's. You know everyone's, everyone's different, everyone has different needs and ways of going about massive life change like that. Some people really like to have a really clear parameter there's a room where they close the door and they're in work mode and then they exit that space and they're in this other mode. And for some people, they really welcomed the merger of humanity into the workplace. You guys saw that clip of I think he was a news anchor and his kids start coming in while he's trying to deliver the news. Right, I was just thinking about that Like the most perfect scene, and some people have been really craving the ability to be more human at work and through the internet, like through Zoom, whatever it is.

Speaker 4: 8:43

So it really depends, and I think organizations as a whole really need to honor like, first of Zoom, whatever it is. So you know it really depends, and I think organizations as a whole really need to honor like, first of all, get clear on the reality of what their people want and knowing that that's going to be a spectrum and then really trying to allow people to guide themselves through what is best for them. There's, you know, there's, there's a lot there, a whole topic for sure.

Speaker 1: 9:15

So kind of getting into this like real life versus work life. I mean, I know that you have a story that you've talked about publicly, I think, about losing your father and how that was handled. I was really fascinated to. Maybe you could share that with our audience. And, like I don't know if that is also impacted how you thought, thought about the spaces and the environments that people work in as well.

Speaker 4: 9:33

Absolutely. I think from the beginning I've always looked at spaces not just as you know, it's so many things, it's the extension of the brand, it's the lifestyle that you can be provided by your employer, but also the spaces that we live and work in are ultimately there to nurture us. They can have sort of like a motherly approach. They can hold us through difficult times and I remember going through and I knew this, I've always known that like our spaces, the way that we arrange our spaces, are ways that we kind of mother ourselves and mother our people, nurture our people.

Speaker 4: 10:05

And I was going through really my first big understanding of grief a couple of years ago almost exactly this time of year two years ago and I lost my dad and I for the first time really got that initiation of what deep grief really does to humans.

Speaker 4: 10:22

And I remember sending a Slack message to my team I was working for this prefabricated home building company here in Vancouver at the time and I just said, guys, it's time for me to go to my dad's bedside and be there till the end.

Speaker 4: 10:34

And it was such a vulnerable moment because people knew that he was sick but I don't think I had really expressed where he was really at and within seconds I got a note from every single person, including the CEO. That was like literally, just take as much time as you need, we've got you, just go be fully present there. And the way that I was treated and held during that time by the organization that I was supported made me infinitely loyal to them. To this day I will do anything to be in support because they supported me and I think bringing that reality of grief to the forefront and inviting our full humanness into the workforce like I don't see a downside to that, granted that people are comfortable doing that and I'm not saying that's for everyone People do differently but I do think bringing that humanity forward is going to make stronger companies and better relationships within them that humanity forward is going to make stronger companies and better relationships within them.

Speaker 1: 11:34

Yeah, I'm very grateful that you're willing to share that, because I think you and I talked about this, I think, so many times, in the workplace especially, and I do think that COVID time was a tipping point a little bit, in that there are often these topics that are sort of taboo. We just don't talk about this at work. We don't talk about the challenges we had a pet that died, or a close one who died, uh, with remiscarriage, right, all those kinds of things that I think, um, it's I. I just have gotten to the point where I just truly believe like it's hard, like, if you're a leading people right, assuming that there's this very rigid like here's my work persona, here's my life, non-work persona and there's no overlap Like it just doesn't make sense, and so I think it's really important that we bring those things out. I mean, we've talked about mental health on this podcast with a couple of different people, and I think all those things should be out there as as viable topics, as long as people are comfortable with it.

Speaker 2: 12:31

Absolutely, and it's like I mean broadly organizations, obviously. I think you know it probably falls more into the people manager, people, hr side ways to just educate. You know everybody, right, whether you're managing people or not, I think it's easy to lose sight of. I mean, it's really easy to lose sight of the fact that people have a whole bunch of other stuff going on in the world, right and, um, trying to find that empathy that you don't know like they're a little bit short with you today. You have no idea what happened this morning, right, or this afternoon, or what phone call they just got or whatever. So it's just like operating with a bit of grace and trying to remember that there's so much more happening outside of the place of work. And you know, I don't think age is a factor there, right, like you know, earlier in your career maybe you're fortunate enough to not have experienced some things. Bless you if you are, because good for you, right. But I think it's our responsibility as people managers and business builders to figure out ways to, like, try to articulate that those things are happening Right, and for those of us that have gone through it earlier in our lives, um, you know, just try to remember on it, remember it and reflect on it, uh, as you engage with folks, right, um, but I I love that, like you're, you're able to like take these experiences and sort of morph them into the work that is filling your cup up today and like helping people transform the way that they're feeling about their work and all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 14:17

I mean, I lost my mom a year and a half ago now and it was like the worst possible time. I was literally launching Mopsapalooza that year, right, and like she was supposed to be there to come take tickets with us and all this stuff, right, and it was a five-year battle, uh, right, so she, she shouldn't even have made it that long, according to doctors. Um, and in general, like you just have to like, there was a whole bunch of things that we changed here in the house, right, like that you can't see it in the video behind me, but there's like a little, you know, a heart behind me and that's that's part of mom, right. And then there's like a star that my wife like dedicated to her and you know we're rounding out my space to like make her a part of everything that she was so excited about right Within the community and that that made me feel really good. But anyway, sorry, this isn't about me, this is just about, like I've tried to tie it back to like, yeah, this stuff matters.

Speaker 4: 15:13

It does, mike, and thank you for sharing, because what you started out by saying before you shared your personal story, which thanks for sharing was that you know we have to remember to give people a little bit more grace, sometimes if they're short and and when we come forward with our story, everybody else is like oh my gosh. Me too, I was standing on stage telling the story with my dad. I asked people to raise their hand who had gone through some sort of loss in the last few years. Every single person raised their hand and so, bringing that forward, the grace is there, it's instantly there when we know what each other are going through, and this makes stronger teams, this makes stronger organizations, this makes happier people who feel that they can really bring their whole selves to the workplace. So thank you for sharing and I think it's so important to lead by example, right?

Speaker 3: 15:58

I think it's one thing to say to an organization or say to your team, like, yes, I want to encourage open dialogue and put that out there, but unless you share your own experiences, of course, in appropriate context, like it's really difficult for those that you work with in your immediate space to do the same, right, and if you lead by example, I think it can really signal to others that, yeah, it's okay to discuss these personal challenges.

Speaker 3: 16:24

You know, I, while I haven't had, you know, a loss of a close family member or a parent, last year in Kelly, I went through a very difficult international adoption where my husband and I we brought home a toddler and overnight I became a parent and I had a bit of time off and then when I went back to work, it was okay.

Speaker 3: 16:48

Do I just pretend that like everything's exactly the same when this morning I had a toddler who really does not know me, basically, is going through a huge traumatic experience herself and me try to be okay? So how about that pipeline? You know what I mean. Like it's just not. It's just not like where my mind was at, you know, and I think just me being very open and honest with my team, like yeah, guys, sorry, like I'm just not feeling this meeting today. Let me just reschedule it to tomorrow or let you know what, let's just exit. Let's just talk about it over teams or email, you know, and I think that that's just something that you have to also, like I had to give myself a lot of grace to being like you know I am thinking in my mind yeah, like I can be this like badass working mom and do all of it at the same time.

Speaker 3: 17:36

But I really needed this transition space and the team to really understand. I'm not in the headspace to do this today, you know you know, yeah, I'm, I'm a, I'm a.

Speaker 1: 17:47

This is all bringing to forefront for me. I'm a big fan of the Stephen Covey seven habits of highly effective people thing, and there's the. I think I think it's one of the seven habits, but if it's not, it's a tenant of that which is like seek first to understand, then be understood, and he had a way that's out of character and it was like on a, on a subway or a train somewhere, kids running around, dad not paying attention, and he's about to go say something to the dad, like why don't you get your kids under control? And it turns out mom had just passed away and he just like didn't know, like the kids didn't know how to handle it. Dad was struggling with it and it was like, oh yeah, like we don't know what is going on with somebody else and so, um, anyway, we're like this has been.

Speaker 1: 18:36

I really wanted to bring this up because I think it's important, like, I think it's an important topic in general, but let's, maybe we can get back to um, like what you have been doing. So I know, um, you've been recently speaking and you've been talking about this notion of in the workplace. I think it's mostly in the workplace, nurturers versus rocket builders. So first up maybe like set the stage, what do those mean, what do you mean by that? And then we can start to kind of tie that into what our listeners are doing on a daily basis start to kind of tie that into what our listeners are doing on a daily basis.

Speaker 4: 19:13

Yes, love it. So yeah, I've been speaking kind of internationally about really around the future of work and my vision for the future of work and this notion of the rocket builder and the nurturer really came from my 10 years in tech, having the sense that there's a lot, there's this pattern of progress for the sake of progress, without actually truly considering whether that progress is leading us to a healthier collective place as an organization, as a world, and really kind of trying to kind of at odds about these two directions. And there's this Chinese proverb that comes to mind that I'm wondering if y'all have heard about, but it says the longest journey a man will ever take is the 18 inches from his head to his heart. The longest journey a man will ever take is the 18 inches from his head to his heart. And for me there are head forward builders, rocket builders, even leaders, who are, you know, they're building the product, they're the coders, they're the data analysts, they're the really cerebrally strategic thinkers.

Speaker 4: 20:03

And then there's also the nurturers at the organization. These are heart forward leaders. These people are emotionally attuned, they have their ear to the ground, they know the pulse of the organization, they're the galvanizers, they're the ones putting on the conferences, like anything with food and beverage and ritual. And these, both of these people and you know, of course there's always some that are a spectrum of both, but both of these types of people are extremely important in every organization and I would argue that they become more powerful when they're balanced with the other. And so I've kind of seen a pattern where the nurturers are sort of less valued and less empowered, where it's all about the builders and again, this is like a tech lens, so you can bridge build to marketing, maybe it comes through in some way but really trying to like lift and raise both of these people and make sure that the organization is equally balanced with them.

Speaker 1: 20:56

Yeah, I think this is actually what I'm thinking of and it just occurred to me, even though we've talked about this a little bit before, is how this kind of we should be thinking about this very consciously, I think, when we were making like both decisions about where we go work right, do we understand how we would fit into the team based on what you know where we lie on that spectrum? If, if, if at all. And then on the other side, right when we're hiring, right, if we understand what our team makeup is, how can we, if we've you can over, you know, heavy on that and we need somebody who can help bridge build and help be the go-between when they're butting heads or whatever. I think there's some value in that. I'm a bit like I've done with my teams before. I haven't done it in this context, but I've done. I mean, you can pick whichever one.

Speaker 1: 21:50

I've used StrengthsFinder, right, doing an assessment and then sharing with everybody, and I think there's something really valuable in. I mean there's some like understanding yourself is, I think, good. Right, self-awareness is good, but also the real value from my standpoint has been seeing how others go like oh, this is why you know we've had trouble communicating on something or why we couldn't work, and it's like that insight I remember I was doing with a leadership team at a company that was like 20, 25 people, like it's crazy that many people but there's a large group. We'd all done Myers-Briggs in this case, and if you're familiar with that right, the first run is the introversion versus extroversion one. Well, we all did this and we then did a thing together where we like somebody facilitated, revealing our results and what they meant.

Speaker 1: 22:41

The president of the organization realized she was like like everybody on here, except for like two people, is pretty far on the east side, so no wonder we can't get a meeting to finish on time. Like everybody wants, wants to talk. I mean just like small insights like that were really valuable. So I can imagine something like this would be good too. So how have you seen that? Like future of work standpoint, like how have you seen that? Are you finding that's resonating with people? Are they like? Are they like taking this back and applying it?

Speaker 4: 23:13

Yes, I think I mean I definitely get a lot of people coming up to me afterwards and just thinking they've never, like, like, seen it in that frame before, but they can completely understand where they might be a little, you know, top heavy with regards to just like sprinting at goals without really having the like heart forward checks and balances of, like, like who's setting these goals? Are these really? Is this really where we want to go? I think one example that I talk about is AI. Right, if you look at the amount of people that are working in AI jobs right now, 98% of them are about progress and 2% of them are about safety, even though we know we have major safety issues to think about with deploying this kind of technology. So, yeah, just trying to get people to think more from the intelligence of their hearts with what it is that we're trying to create and build together, rather than, like, focusing entirely from the cerebral mind.

Speaker 1: 24:04

Yeah, I'm curious, naomi and Mike, what's your reaction to all this? Does it resonate with you too? Or, if you're like me, I'm already like oh, how can apply this? Like with the team I'm working with? Take your time, it's all right she's like she's, she, naomi's not. She's not sold on this, I'm gonna guess that's okay, she's not making.

Speaker 2: 24:35

She's not making one opinion or the other, I just want to hear what you have to say, mike, before I form mine, you know what mike said yeah, what mike said, yeah, no, I look, I've done, I don't know I I have, I have, I have a deep appreciation. I mean, look, uh, everything is built around this community, right. So, my, my like, the amount it took a while, I don't know. I don't want to have this come off as like a negative tone by any stretch at all, um, but it was interesting. The dynamic between my wife who many of you listeners know Amanda and I changed over the years as the community evolved, because I would bring to light some of the things, like just in discussion of things I was going through in the community right, and I would be talking about how we need to do a particular push or something for an event, talking about how we need to do a particular push or something for an event, and I would stress that I couldn't do this thing that somebody was asking me to do because it just didn't meet my moral values and our community's code and guideline, right. You know, I think a really simple example of that is I do my very, very best to stay off of mantles, all male panels, right. Um, at a bare minimum at least, let there have, like, let there be a diverse candidate if it's, if it's a all male panel, right? Um, and, and even with some of the tone that we put into the messaging that we put out, right, it's. How do we, how do we ensure we're just sort of like, paying attention to, um, how people are going to perceive the messages that we send and that you know um decisions on? Do we change our logo during pride month? Right, these are these are like, is it just for show? Those are real conversations we've all had in the community, at the, you know, amongst all the leaders, whether it's Naomi or or um, audrey or Dan or whoever, like I'll talk to anybody about this stuff, because we don't want it to look like we're just doing it just to save face, like that's not what that's for, um, and and then you know, we don't, we don't want to disrespect the rest of the times that there could be a color or logo change, right, and so it's this really um interesting balance of just trying to understand how to operate with as much empathy as possible while keeping a business moving forward. All that being said, right, and as I, as I look, reflect back on my time, uh, in sort of corporate, as an embedded participant in an organization right.

Speaker 2: 27:20

I too have done those Myers-Briggs things and whatever other tests I've done, I have rarely seen them put into practice in a way that really was meaningful, other than the sort of enlightening moment like, aha, I understand, we have the room filled with eyes and you know, whatever, whatever the letters all meant, right Outside of that moment, even we put in effort to like pin our profile types to our, to our cubicles or whatever you wanted to call them Right.

Speaker 2: 28:00

So when people walked up, they at least knew, like, well, at least I did, um, but I don't know that that moved the needle right. Like people immediately default back to like I got to get a job done and I kind of don't. I don't have time to think about this stuff, so I don't know it's, it's, it's good to be enlightened and be educated on it. Putting it into practice is fascinating because, um, somehow we're we sort of like, like skirt around it still, even once we kind of know it, um. So that's my long winded answer. To think about this stuff, I think it's really important. It's just hard to see it come to fruition and in practice.

Speaker 3: 28:46

Yeah, and I agree with that.

Speaker 2: 28:47

I think like see what Mike said.

Speaker 3: 28:50

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:50

Like I honestly literally.

Speaker 3: 28:51

Mike, you know I'm serious. You took the words right out of my mouth. I was gonna say verbatim, exactly the same thing.

Speaker 2: 28:58

That doesn't surprise me One thing. I will say the reason that we're all in the community together.

Speaker 4: 29:09

Right, there you go Right. And for me, working with the marketing team, the marketers within tech, they're the storytellers. They know how to bridge, build the truth of what's being built to to the mass, to the people. So I do think that you know this. I'm kind of preaching to the choir when I'm talking to marketing folks about the importance of of leading with the heart, because you guys understand people, you are galvanizers, you are storytellers.

Speaker 2: 29:33

Well, particularly Sorry, hartman, go ahead, go ahead. The thing that I'll say is and this sort of goes back to the whole marketing ops isn't just marketing kind of a thing, but we're part of marketing. But what's really interesting about marketing ops is that I think, in a lot of ways we I don't want to pretend like somehow we're way more, um, like we're forced to interact with lots of different people, more so than any one one group or what have you, but it definitely happens a lot right. Like we, we have to be able to translate what the business's goals are and what somebody else's challenges are, and look at a tech stack and look at the buyer's journey and try to like, say no without saying no. A lot Right. And so all of those bits and bobs, like I feel like there's an interesting, delicate, delicate sort of transition of, uh, the art of the possible in this role. That is often a little different than I think how it comes to light in other particular marketing roles, for that matter.

Speaker 1: 30:44

Well, I think what I was going to say is I think, when Kelly just said, marketers tend to I think what you were saying, kelly I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it was like they tend to lean more towards the nurture sort of side of that spectrum, as opposed to the rocket builder.

Speaker 1: 31:01

And I know there's exceptions, so don't come after me because I know there are exceptions, but I actually think that people in marketing ops, probably in general, tend to lean the other way, and I think it's again sort of to your point, mike. Whether or not, how, how does this come to life? In understanding that, I think it would be. It's a useful model in my head to go when I'm getting frustrated with our creative team or our content team arguing about the placement of an image or, uh, you know the uh, the grammar that we're using on an ad or something like that, and I'm like we just need to get this thing out right. I guess like this is good to understand that there's more than one side to this. And why like this? Is not because they're trying to not necessarily trying to like be a stubborn in the way person, it's just part of their nature.

Speaker 4: 31:59

Yes.

Speaker 2: 32:01

Yeah, yeah, that resonates for sure, and I do think I mean I definitely, as you were describing nurture and rocket builder, um it. I I was sort of reflecting back on the RevOps hot take panel that we did Naomi at Mopsapalooza, and I challenged the notion that certain things were maybe not as exciting for someone. I think Steven Stouffer was talking about like some of some of the types of things that a rev ops person might be doing or marketing ops person might be doing, like you want to be attached to marketing, because it's this like exciting sort of thing and I said well, for the intellectually curious, working with data and like thinking about the strategic kind of use of go to market act, like that side of it is actually really exciting to me and I think to a lot of marketing ops folks too. I don't want to say that they're all going to fall into that category, but I it is interesting that I I think there are there's a it would be fun to do a survey right To say like how many of us sort of straddle the line between a little bit of both right, this nurture, rocket builder concept, um, cause I think you have to think about edge cases all the time in marketing, right, and you're you're like, oh, how are they going to respond when I tell them this next thing, or that it's going to take, you know, 40 days to get this done because I have to stop this other project or whatever.

Speaker 2: 33:37

Like there's all. I don't know. It's fascinating.

Speaker 3: 33:39

I'm curious what you would define yourself as, though, as Mike.

Speaker 4: 33:43

Are you a?

Speaker 3: 33:43

nurturer a rocket builder, or a bit of both. You know I think right nurturers sometimes prioritize harmony over urgency or even innovation. Right, and you know, like trying to keep that peace and rocket builders to me can sometimes like neglect, team dynamics or even emotional well-being in the pursuit of like we need to meet the school.

Speaker 1: 34:08

Right Accomplishment.

Speaker 3: 34:10

Accomplishment, yeah, possibly create burnout if you know that pace and that expectation. It's sometimes relentless, you know, and I think there's a time and place for both, but that's not also sustainable in the longterm.

Speaker 2: 34:25

Yeah, uh to. So it's weird to talk about oneself, because I was like, oh, what? As you were describing it, kelly, I was like, where do I think I fall on that? Um, I do see it for myself. I think it's a bit of both. Um, my default state is nurture, in terms of just like I uh for our listeners.

Speaker 2: 34:49

If you aren't aware, you haven't met my whole family at Mopsapalooza yet. I am a product of a divorced household. I was raised by many parents and many grandparents and many aunts, and I once told my family that I would write a book one day called the Middleman, and I was constantly in the middle of everybody, right, like, trying to keep the peace. Family dynamics are fascinating when you have large families, particularly ones that you know are separated, etc. And so my, my default state is don't rock the boat, be helpful to others.

Speaker 2: 35:27

And and then, as a business, entrepreneurial minded individual, I am definitely more on the innovation rocket builder, like go, like innovate and push the boundaries a little bit, but if it's in the way of someone else's ability to have their success or to be a part of that journey, and it was to hinder my ability to have a great relationship and build something alongside somebody else, I would defer to making sure that we included those other people. Um, that's just my natural state. I've had to teach myself to be more of the rocket builder in everything that we're doing now. Right, like saying, be more uh, direct in my language. I think is is what I have learned, which I'm clearly struggling with today, cause I just keep babbling on and on.

Speaker 1: 36:18

Yeah, I mean I, I, I think I feel like a little bit neurotic on those two dynamics, right. I think on the one hand, I like a very much like want to like move stuff forward. I like a tendency toward action. At the same time, I feel like I do have a bit of that nurture in me. You know, I often tell coaching clients who are people managers, right, and this is like this is a really fine line. You want to be friendly, but not friends necessarily with the people who report to you, and if they become friends, that's okay. But I think it's a, I think it's a real delicate balance. Do you have something to say, naomi?

Speaker 3: 36:59

Well, I was. Well the whole. It was interesting because I don't know how to. I don't know how to like verbalize this, but you know I sometimes try to.

Speaker 3: 37:11

I sometimes wonder after I have conversations or, you know, just one-on-ones with folks either on my team or even those that I'm maybe mentoring or whatnot. I want to listen to them and have them feel like I'm mentoring or helping them, but I also don't want to feel like I'm momming them. If that makes sense, feel like I'm there, I'm momming them if that makes sense, right, like I don't. I don't want to. Sometimes I come away I'm like, wow, did I, did I did I come across as like their parent or like, especially if they're new grads and they're trying to enter the workforce and they're looking for advice on, you know, how they should approach a certain situation or conflict in the workplace.

Speaker 3: 37:55

And you know, is my advice coming to them from a position as a leader or as a peer or somebody who you know cares for them, as also a friend, and I don't know, it's just. It's just it's. It's maybe just this weird internal dialogue that I have where I'm like I'm very conscious of not coming across as giving them advices. If they were, if I was their parents, you know.

Speaker 1: 38:23

So I'm sure that's. I mean, I think we all probably deal with that.

Speaker 3: 38:27

Um, it's hard and it's hard right, so Cause I've I've been on the receiving end of that and sometimes I still am, where I get talked to by, you know, and I'm not necessarily saying in like the organization I work for or anything, but just in daily life.

Speaker 4: 38:42

No, I'm kidding Well. No, I'm not.

Speaker 1: 38:46

I know I'm not.

Speaker 3: 38:48

I don't know. It's hard for me to verbalize this, but I think you know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, because sometimes it can come across as condescending, and I want to make sure that I'm not coming across as condescending to the people that I'm mentoring or people that report to me, because I don't appreciate it when it's the other way.

Speaker 1: 39:04

Right yeah absolutely so, kelly. Another, another thing that we there are probably other sort of spectrums we could talk about, but you also have been talking about, I think, in some of your speaking engagements about balance and neurodiversity and again, like what does that mean to you and how does it fit into the work kind of future of work? We'll keep it at that.

Speaker 4: 39:32

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4: 39:35

This has become like a new topic, like this was not something that people were talking about 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

Speaker 4: 39:41

I'm so grateful that this is coming up, that we're all like learning a new lens, that we can understand that people are just neurologically like very different the way we take in a built environment, the way we feel in a space, and so I think for me how it's landing is really, as an organizational leader, to really have an understanding, just like Mike said, about like the full, the fringe of both sides, like the widest part of the spectrum, to really know your people and then, rather than just like designing something for right in the middle so that everybody gets a little bit of what they need, like really understanding that every single person deserves to have a safe place to do their work, and for some people that means it's their home and that's just what it's going to be.

Speaker 4: 40:22

But just in thinking about the workplace, the work environment, what does that look like? Is there a place for people who are really easily overstimulated to go and have a place to process anything, whether it's emotional or just like a difficult problem that they're trying to work out in their mind, to like have a take a beat so that they can find their creativity again. So you know, whether this like applies to the actual physical workspace or just the sort of the structure that organizations are putting on their people around hybrid work and working from home and whatever it is Like I think we really need to go all the way to the full outer spectrum in order to provide something that everybody can equally benefit from. I think this is the big piece of neurodiversity and coming forward.

Speaker 1: 41:09

Yeah, it's interesting to me that you like this is coming up. I think I don't know that I've seen it as much, but I feel like, so, yeah, full transparency. So I'm married to a dyslexic and I have one. I have a child that goes to a learning difference school, right, um, and we would classify him as what we call 2e, like twice exceptional, right, he's super smart, sometimes struggles with social interactions, right, um, not on the spectrum, right, that kind of stuff. But he, he, like he's, he's, uh, not what they call it neurotypical, right, and I think, um, so for me, having that exposure, I know like I'm much more open to that than even, and I think I was relatively open to diversity of ideas and thoughts, um, and have been for a long time, even though I've had people who've worked for me before told me I'm a control freak.

Speaker 1: 42:03

Um, but like I, I really welcome, like, different ideas, and it's one of the things I try to do when I have a team is like really foster that, that environment where people can feel comfortable bringing those ideas. Doesn't matter how crazy they are doesn't mean we're going to do everything right, but I think it's way more valuable to lead on that end of it. But are you seeing, like? Are you seeing and hearing about that? And then, like any you know, if you have any tips for how to uh make our work environments or how we lead teams right To to take advantage of that Cause, I do think you can. It's an advantage if you're open to it.

Speaker 4: 42:46

I agree, I think I, you know, I've seen and every. Every organization is different, the culture is different, the scale is different, the resources are different. It's really hard to kind of create a blanket statement but I can, I can share a story that I have told that people really like for one kind of side of the spectrum. I had this. This company in LA was, which was founded by two women and they really wanted to cultivate the permission to like cry at work and so I literally designed a room of these like little pods that you could climb into and just like hide away. I don't really know if people actually cried, but I know that people would sneak into those pods to just take a beat and be completely unseen and just hide. This is like one end, very far end of like a spectrum.

Speaker 4: 43:28

I would say, but just like allowing the full and this theme is coming through all of these conversations it's like letting ourselves feel grief and be and not have to put on a mask and pretend it's not there, letting ourselves, you know, lead forward with our heart but at the same time, like not get too stuck in it, that we're like not missing where we have to go. And you know, similarly, for people who are easily overwhelmed, and knowing and giving the grace to people who are showing up to the office, that like sometimes this is a big stretch for them to like really be in an environment with 50 people, like people get overwhelmed by that. So just really designing for that understanding people enough to know, yeah, how to be more graceful and accepting of the full spectrum of humanity, honestly, yeah, I think that's great.

Speaker 2: 44:16

I witnessed some hard things as startup was going through multiple scale up phases. Um, one of the organizations I worked with and people manager had to make some really hard choices, appointing leaders to roles that were newer at the company than those that had been around since the very beginning. You could imagine the level of tension that was in the room. You could cut it with a knife and that particular leader you know, really got emotional with us as the information was shared and, you know, broke down, had tears. It was a woman. She was an incredible leader. We loved working with her and I have to say I I was outside of it cause I wasn't up for the role.

Speaker 2: 45:09

So I had this other perspective, right, like it wasn't something for me, and I was just really aghast by the way that everybody responded to it and I I understand their personal bias and their frustration, right, that they wanted that position and they see it as potentially unfair. But I also watched as people sort of responded in a way that was like almost an expression of wow. You know, I can't believe you're being emotional like this kind of a thing and I it was so dismissive of the, the pressure Right, and I I couldn't not say anything, right? I had to say something to the room and it fell on deaf ears, right, cause everybody's pissed off. But I was. I, it's all of that. I share that story. Just to say it happens sometimes in public, not in a pod, and you know people need to, people need to.

Speaker 2: 46:08

We started with a message of have some grace right, like try to put yourself for just a moment in that person's shoes who's trying to make a really good decision for the business. Uh, and that is their, you know their fiduciary responsibility as a leader and just do your best people.

Speaker 4: 46:28

That's all.

Speaker 1: 46:31

I don't think I could add anything else to that. I mean, this is why I love coaching when I get the chance to do that, especially with people who are moving into leadership roles because it's hard, right, it's hard to balance these things between, you know, holding people accountable but also, you know, trying to support them as a whole person and, like dude, that balance it's not easy, you know. And then you, you know you then you start to question yourself did I go to, did I let them go too far and then they've taken advantage of me? Or did I, was I too harsh, right? And I mean, maybe it's, maybe it's like we all need if we're going to be a leader, we need to have some sort of like I don't know psychology type training, right, because I think there's a lot that goes into it.

Speaker 1: 47:22

That is not, you know, can I read a balance sheet or income statement? It's like, can I, how can I, you know, get the most from this person on my team or as the team as a whole, right? Um, and and sustain that for a period of time and celebrate Like I, I, I had people leave for better, you know, other opportunities. I felt like I was a part of it. I was happy for them. Right Suck for me in the moment, but I'm happy for them and that's what I want.

Speaker 2: 47:55

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:56

Today more than ever.

Speaker 2: 47:57

Right, we need like times are changing more than ever, right, we need like times are changing. So it's like, if you want a successful organization, focus on your people and your process and your product yeah, I mean, I think.

Speaker 1: 48:13

No, no, I was just saying I think my big takeaway from all this is like, yeah, whether it's a spectrum of um, you know, a neurodiversity one, or the nurture versus rocket builder, male versus female, like all the like um, I think I think it's good, like I'm taking away, like it's, it's good reminder that like we need to be thinking about this stuff, like we need to stop and think about it occasionally. If we're not, like it's easy to just get caught up in the go go, go, go go. I'm always on, I can't be human around the people I work with, right, and I think it's to me like the big message here is like we need to be, we need to like rethink that if that's how we're thinking and reset so sorry I interrupted you, kelly and reset so sorry I interrupted you, kelly.

Speaker 4: 49:01

No, I was just going to kind of building on that, just knowing also that this, like I know, michael, we talked about the word balance and how it feels just like not a good word because it's so unattainable and it like yeah it's towards perfection, which is just like makes us just get throw our hands up and be like I quit, it's just.

Speaker 4: 49:17

it's really just about, yeah, like understanding who we are, what our nature is and seeing the situation that's in front of us and just trying to like remember the other side and use this like this, like center point of balance, just as something aspirational, like whenever we find that we need it. So, balancing also you know how much we understand and learn and study about psychology and leadership with just into intuiting in the moment what the right thing, to do is right, and learning as we go and and messing up and falling off the other way and coming back right it's yeah, it's.

Speaker 1: 49:49

Yeah, I'd forgotten that we, like I, the the notion of work life balance always. Yeah, well, let me know I was for a long time is I've struggled with that because I just don't think at a point in time, right, that you can expect to have balance Now, if you are now over time, right, you need to figure out, you know if there are ups and downs. Right For our listeners like I'm doing this like wave thing, right, cause that's the way life is You're going to have times where you know work may overcome personal and vice versa, and I think for me it's a good, it's helpful to recognize like this is a season, right, where I may not feel in balance this particular moment. But am I on a trajectory that overall, I can do that? And recognizing that at some point I need to try to get back towards that middle state, but I don't expect it and I think it's again like giving yourself grace, right.

Speaker 1: 50:48

Yeah, so, like Naomi's story about, I want to come in, I want to be like this powerhouse working mother which I'm sure she is right and like all this pressure that you probably put on yourself you put on yourself, right, it's just like like there are going to be days that are up and downs and that's just the way it goes.

Speaker 1: 51:11

So, yeah, in fact, like the, what it's interesting, I heard, unrelated, like more in the line, a line of like sports achievement, right, so it was. I think it was a woman female track athlete had had a bad workout, went to her coach and was like I just terrible workout today. She's like think of it in thirds, right, when you're going after something challenging and a goal, like you're probably gonna have, your days are gonna be one of three types. Right, it's gonna be a great day. It's gonna be a day that you're disappointed with or have your days are going to be one of three types. Right, it's going to be a great day. It's going to be a day that you're disappointed with or it's going to be like on par. As long as the blend is somewhere like the thirds, you're probably okay and that's like to me. That stuck with me is like oh, maybe that applies to just work and life in general.

Speaker 4: 51:59

Absolutely Love it.

Speaker 1: 52:02

So maybe we end there, cause Kelly agreed with me.

Speaker 2: 52:10

I think this has been awesome, Kelly, so thank you for joining us and getting getting this conversation going again. And yeah, we appreciate it.

Speaker 4: 52:19

Thanks for sharing all this Super happy that you were able to join Kelly.

Speaker 1: 52:21

Yeah, naomi, naomi's the glue. Thanks for sharing all your stories. Super happy that you were able to join Kelly. Yeah, Naomi, Naomi's the glue. She brought it all together, Kelly. Again, thank you so much. It was. It was a great conversation. It's like very thoughtful kinds of stuff and I appreciate that. If folks do want to learn more, like get an opportunity maybe to hear you speak or hear about what you're talking about or doing, what's the best way for them to do that?

Speaker 4: 52:43

Yeah, I'm on both LinkedIn and I have my my website. Kelly A Robinson is where you can find me, so, both on LinkedIn and Kelly Robinsoncom and yeah, we'd love to connect with your community. Thank you for creating such an incredible group of people and thanks to everyone for listening.

Speaker 1: 53:00

Absolutely, as always. Thanks, Mike. Naomi, it's great to have you back again. It's always more fun with all of us. Anyway, and then thanks to our listeners, as always, for continuing to support us. As always, if you have ideas for topics or guests, or want to be a guest, feel free to reach out to Naomi, Mike or me, and we would be happy to talk to you about that. Until next time. Bye, everybody.