Speaker 1: 0:23

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by MarketingOpscom, powered by all those MoPros out there. I'm your host, michael Hartman, flying solo today as we get into another of our 2025 episodes. Joining me today is Janelle Roscoe. She is joining me today to share how she made her way into marketing ops on a budget, so this may be of interest for those of you who are trying to break into the profession or trying to figure out how to learn more as you go along the way without breaking the bank. So Janelle is currently Associate Director of Digital Marketing and Marketing Systems at Lonza. Prior to that, she was a Marketing Automation Manager at Sartorius, and prior to that, she held various roles in general marketing and digital marketing. So, janelle, thanks for joining me today. Thank you for having me, mike.

Speaker 2: 1:11

Excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:12

Yeah, it'll be fun. Not nervous, are you? No, not at all.

Speaker 2: 1:16

All right, we don't want you to be nervous, okay, no, not nervous. I think anyone in marketing ops. If you get in 45 minutes to talk about marketing ops and related things.

Speaker 1: 1:29

I think that is always wonderful, so we can talk about it forever. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I know I could. I have to watch myself sometimes, so all right. So one of the things we like to do in a lot of our episodes is have our guests walk through their career journey and how they ended up in marketing ops. But I think, with given the nature of what I'm anticipating our conversation to be today, I don't think we're going to go start there directly. But why don't we start with this Like, how long have you been in a marketing ops role, whether or not it was called marketing ops, and when did you start saying that you were in marketing ops and why?

Speaker 2: 2:07

Okay. So I would say technically I've been in I think you know corporate and marketing for about six years now and all of the roles I've had in marketing have had some element of what is typically referred to as marketing ops. For those past six years and I think since when I got into marketing it was, I would say, my first real job. I would say we're you know, nine to five. So I didn't even know marketing ops was a thing because I was new to marketing officially in the industry. But once I found out what you know, once I really leaned into all of those things that are marketing ops and once I found out that marketing ops was a thing and I was like, oh yes, this is my thing and there are others out there like me and I mean, I think it just kind of opened up the world to me in terms of my career and what I really wanted to do in marketing Sure.

Speaker 1: 3:09

So what a lot of people who have been in marketing end up in not a lot, but there's a number of people who end up in marketing ops. Was there anything in particular about the nuances of marketing ops that attracted you into those, like kind of taking on those, or was it just sort of like somebody needed to solve this problem? So I'm going to go figure it out.

Speaker 2: 3:28

I think it was a mix of all of those things. Just me personally, before I got into marketing and I would say corporate marketing, and as a career I was a fitness instructor. So there was a few things that kind of I would say, taking from that that really, I would say, served as the background to what's making me successful in marketing ops, and one of those is customer centricity. I think marketing ops is like one of the unsung heroes of the customer journey and one of the things that I always saw, you know, kind of digging around and back ends of systems was wait, these people really want to do business with us as a company. How can we get this to the right person faster? How can we ensure that their interest gets there, that they're to the right person? So all of those things are like super important to me and I was hypersensitive to that thing coming from my career in fitness, because, let's say, I'm leading a class there and you have tons of people in your class.

Speaker 2: 4:28

Everyone's on a different level. So part of that is, how do I make sure that each person although and I think this you know like personal. If you think personalization is a big part of marketing ops. How do I make sure each person that's coming to my class has a personalized experience? How can I design a class that where each person feels like it's designed just for them? So I brought a lot of that into the way I think about how I structure and work within marketing ops and also it was, you know, always wanting to learn what's the newest thing on the fitness industry. I always wanted to learn that. So it was always just that quest for new things, quest of always being on the cusp of what's out there. What do customers want more of and how can we give them that just ultimate customer journey and customer experience as they engage with us?

Speaker 1: 5:20

I love that. Yeah, I think you hit on a couple of elements that I think are fairly consistent, or one is like just a curiosity. I think what I find is people in marketing ops tend to be curious by nature. And then the other one is, you know, essentially call it customer-centric, but it depends on what you mean by customer, and I tend to think of customers as actual customers, right? So, whether you think of it as advocating for customers in the things you do as an organization, or, if you think about, as internal customers which I can't believe I'm even saying it because one of my least favorite terms, uh, is uh, yeah, at least trying to understand other people's motivations, right, because sometimes it can get frustrating in these roles when you go like why are you asking me to do this or why do we do want to do that?

Speaker 2: 6:10

and I think when you start to understand other people's motivations, it can help that no, exactly, and I think if anyone is kind of most aware of internal customers and external customers right, it is someone in marketing ops, because you're often getting requests from your internal customers and then you're also tasked with keeping your actual customers' needs, wants and motivations, you know. Key to all of that so it's juggling that requirement from your internal customer to what your actual customer wants and you know doing that with ease and using the tools to do that. So I think just actually having customers of my own who were always very quick to tell me if they were satisfied or dissatisfied, really, you know, just taking that into my career has been, I think, extremely helpful. And, like you said, the curiosity you call it curiosity, I like to call it being nosy and I would tell people all of the time if there is something in a system, I'm going to look at it.

Speaker 2: 7:18

How did you put this together? How did this work? And if there's documentation out there and if it's on a public drive, I am going to read it. If there's something in a file cabinet and it's shared documenting a process or why is the company doing this, I am going to look at it, because all of those things are tools to help me understand better. What are the processes, what are internal customers looking for? So I think everyone knows and I'll tell everyone that I work with. I am very nosy and I'm always looking at things.

Speaker 1: 7:52

If it's public available.

Speaker 2: 7:54

I am going to look at it, yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:55

I love it. So one of the things you said to me is that you are self-taught, which you sort of hinted at in some of this stuff already it sounds like you started out as a marketing assistant already it sounds like you started out as a marketing assistant and can you maybe share some examples of the kinds of things you did when you were in that role that you were doing, kind of finding your own sources of information or how you learned from those?

Speaker 2: 8:22

Yeah, sure. So the crazy thing about it was is I was just looking for an easy job nine to five, start, finish, simple job. So I was just looking for an easy job nine to five, that start, finish, simple job. So I think starting out as a marketing assistant it was basics answering the phone, making samples, mailing packages. I mean I think when I say assistant, true assistant, but then I learned early on doing that, okay, I want to do more.

Speaker 2: 8:46

And I think I dipped my toe into learning Salesforce then because it's like, okay, I want to do more and you know, I think I dipped my toe into learning Salesforce then because it's like, okay, you answer the phone, then you have to put that customer inquiry into Salesforce. So of course I wanted to know about, know more about that. So I spent time, you know, learning Salesforce because how can I use that to better improve you know the customer, make sure it's assigned to the right person for follow up. And then also, I think before I started kind of at this marketing assistant, I had some part time, I would say sales and marketing roles where I dabbled in doing email. So you know, constant contact, I think, some basic marketing and email platforms doing that, so I did have experience on building emails and doing email marketing for my own business.

Speaker 1: 9:27

So I was able to kind of leverage that.

Speaker 2: 9:28

So I did have experience on building emails and doing email marketing for my own business, so I was able to kind of leverage that. I think that's kind of like advice. I always tell people if there is a door that is open, if there is an opportunity, you know, I think I was just always very quick to take it and there was an opportunity. I was asked just one time hey, I think I remember you on your resume that you said you had experience doing emails before. Can you help us out in Pardot? So I mean I'll even throw in another piece of advice to people. If you're thinking about you know, as you're building out your resume, if you have some experience and things you know, add those, because you really never know when adding that to your resume is going to kind of you know when you need to use that piece of information in your day-to-day job. So I think that's where it really started.

Speaker 1: 10:15

Do you ever get in those situations where, whether it's you volunteer for doing something, or someone comes to you and says, hey, we need this done and it looks like you might be able to do it. Do you ever have any kind of I don't know what the right term is fear, maybe feel like you know you're not really the right person for it, like any of that kind of stuff? And if so, like how did you overcome that?

Speaker 2: 10:41

Oh, great question. I think anyone I mean I started late, I would say, in developing a career, so it was always that feeling of, I would say, playing catch up, of wanting to, and then I was always been the type of person that wanted to be the first one finished with the test, wanted to always have the answer. You know and I'm sure you know I hope a lot of my colleagues don't say this know it all, so not knowing is kind of a huge fear. Right, I would say so if someone were to ask one day, or if I kind of felt like it was going to come up basically spend the next few days learning whatever I think it was. Or if I'm in a meeting and there's terminology I'm not sure what it. You know, marketing loves to use their acronyms in their things and assume everyone knows it.

Speaker 2: 11:32

I'm Googling those in the call, I'm writing those down, I'm just making sure. If I don't know it today, what can I do to know it tomorrow or know it next week? And I can't support it. I think part of it too is having that humility and having that understanding, as you're putting your internal and external customers first. If I don't know it, I'm just not going to do it as well, but learning as much as I can to do as much as I can, right, I think it was kind of.

Speaker 1: 12:02

I think it's interesting, because it's like that idea that you feel like you have to know everything or have an answer for anything. I think is a very common thing for people to have, especially in these kinds of roles where you think you should have answers to all this stuff, and I like that. You used the word humility, right. It takes some humility. I don't think and here's my thing, right. I always tell people my goal is to be confident but humble, and you know my goal, like it doesn't.

Speaker 1: 12:26

I think a lot of people think those are two opposites and I don't think that's the case. Right, I think you can be confident in your capabilities and skills and your knowledge or whatever. At the same time, recognize this is where the humility comes in is that you may not know everything, or you may not know the best thing, or you may not like what you know may not quite apply to this particular situation. Right, and I think that's what you're describing is having the humility to admit that you may not know something. At the same time, you can still say I may not know this, but I'm going to go work my tail off to go figure out as much as I can about it to support the business or support the team, or whatever it is you think is important.

Speaker 2: 13:10

Exactly, and part of that, too, is as you learn and grow in the org, it's learning that it's having a humility of knowing who to ask. So I think too, being new in a role, you're not sure of who to ask and sometimes that causes you to feel like you have to know everything. But then I think, enough times you learn that sometimes maybe that's not the best thing. And one of the things that I think I'm huge on when new people start and they have elements of marketing ops in their role and I'm interfacing with them is I'm always like super clear.

Speaker 2: 13:38

If you don't know, if you have a question, if there's anything you feel like you're struggling and spending more time on than you should, please ask me. So it's not to say to create a crutch, but I think it's more so of having come up in my role and not having had many people to ask, because I was kind of in a role and maybe there was no one else in marketing ops who I could ask and having to learn. So I think I've always just kind of really made it clear to those who I'm working with if there's anything about our systems or our processes too, and it's not necessarily just the system, sometimes it's more of we do it this way, and even if you know the system you may know Salesforce, you may know Marketo, you may know HubSpot you don't know how we do it. So ask, and save us all plenty of time from me having to go fix it and you spending time spinning your wheels on something that you know. We may have a process documented somewhere, right Right, that you could easily find.

Speaker 1: 14:38

Yeah, it reminds me of a little bit of being a parent, because my kids would come to me and ask me like let's take a simple one, right, dad? How do you spell this word Right? I'm like I was always the one who would go like what do you think it is right? Yeah, like I want you to try, right? Um, unless I'm just super swamped and I might give you just the answer, but I want people to learn and be able to at least put in some amount of effort before, because I think that's the best way for people to learn right exactly, exactly, yeah exactly.

Speaker 1: 15:09

I'm with you. So, um, you started out as a marketing assistant. I mean, to me almost what you described is almost sort of a hybrid of marketing and sales assistant, because you were doing lead routing and management too, like, almost like a BDR role. So that's interesting by itself. I think that we might come back to how that has influenced you a little bit. But what were some of the like? You mentioned something about constant contact, maybe even part of it, but what, like, what are you know what other things that did you do? When you know you didn't necessarily have a marketing ops scope of responsibility, that you started adding onto your your plate and kind of took you in the direction of marketing ops, kind of took you in the direction of marketing ops.

Speaker 2: 15:54

I would say so that I think there's email, but email kind of sits in that world between marketing ops, digital marketing, and then it even has email marketing right. So it's kind of a it all depends on your org where, like, a true email marketer sits right Because it has those elements of. You know Marcom as well. But so kind of my first I would say throw me in into marketing ops was list imports. Because no one wants to do a list import, I would say to do it. They want someone to do it, everyone wants someone to do it, but no one wants to do it.

Speaker 2: 16:39

I would say that's what it is and I, you know, as an assistant, kind of, hey, no one else is going to do this, this is perfect for you. And I think as I've progressed I really realized how much of a mistake that was Someone asking me. I think now I'm glad they asked me, but I would never ask someone brand new on the job hey, here's this data that's going into our system. You know, clean it up, import it here you have the keys to do that. Because I think now, as you've anyone who's in marketing ops and done their share of list imports. You know all the things that can go wrong, right.

Speaker 1: 17:17

Probably people listening to this right now have the same reaction, which was like this like shiver up the back of my neck, yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:23

So then I'm like this is this is admin work. Right, you get an Excel, you clean the list. This is admin work. So I think now, as I've been in marketing ops or been in my marketing career for about six years and I'm still doing list imports, I'm like, wait a minute, I've had a few promotions here. I'm more, you know, senior level role. Why am I still doing list imports? But the more I know about it and its implications, the more I realize, oh, you should be at kind of a different level and have lots of training and you know lots of QC and processes in place to be doing this. So I think that's kind of how I got in and I really just embraced the list import right, like, how can I make this faster? How can I use this? I use the list import to learn more about Excel because you know, as I said, I really didn't have a corporate background, so all of those tools, even Microsoft Office that you assume everyone knows, I was learning that as well.

Speaker 2: 18:21

So I used the list import to learn Excel. You know how can I learn more about it to make this process faster and speed it up? And that's I mean it was the low, lowly basic list import. That kind of is the foundation of my career and to this day I'm still an expert, quite the expert, uh, at least import.

Speaker 2: 18:42

So that's actually doing some earlier today yeah, doing all kinds of like excel, excel gymnastics, right v lookups and uh formulas and change, change, case, all those things that help you clean your data and make sure it's consistent and that you don't have errors, and things like that. Because you know I think that's where you know I just recently did a training on list imports where I was just like I emphasize it so much Either you, you know, spend 30 extra minutes here or you spend four hours later to fix all your errors no one has the time to do.

Speaker 2: 19:19

Nobody got that yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:20

Yeah, so it's funny because, um, you bring up listing boards is a really interesting one in my mind as I think about it, because you're right, it is. It feels very administrative, it feels very low importance, but if you really understand what the downstream implications of it are, right in terms of your data and how it will either make things easier or harder down the road when you try to do segmentation or whatever you realize.

Speaker 1: 19:49

Actually, it's really important to get it right. Yep, to get it right. And so I can totally understand this sort of conflicting like oh, I'm in a role where I feel like I shouldn't be doing this. At the same time, expecting someone who doesn't really understand all those sort of connections downstream yeah, would be a potential risk. Right, they need to learn it over time, but you don't want to just throw them into it without giving them the tools and the knowledge about why it's important to do these steps.

Speaker 1: 20:20

Because, like you said, otherwise you're going to be cleaning it up after the fact.

Speaker 2: 20:25

Exactly and even I would say learning about customers. I think me as being new to this industry I would say life sciences industry a list employer. I mean it's goal to learn who your customer profile is right, who's your ICP or who isn't in your ICP. That's in your list. What job titles are we targeting right? Who are our competitors? Okay, I need to be able to spot those quickly and remove them from the list. I need to be able to prioritize who's you know high quality prospects for our sales team and you get really, you know what regions are most important to us. You get that from the list import. I mean, as crazy as it seems, no, it's really interesting.

Speaker 1: 21:04

I mean, there's a lot of ways that I'm a big fan of people in marketing marketing ops really understanding how, like, sales works and understanding why, why they act, behave the way they do, whether or not you think it's the right thing, um, and I think it's a really interesting idea again, like there's this. It seems like such an innocuous, boring, mundane pain in the ass task right to upload a list, but there are things you can learn from it in many different ways if you kind of open up your mind about it. I love that. Yeah, actually, that's something I never would have. I'd never thought about until you just said that. Like the idea that you can actually learn something about your customer base from that, that's great, okay.

Speaker 1: 21:49

So another thing you, you and I have talked about is that you, you took advantage and I've already kind of heard it, I think at least some right. It kind of gets back to doing this on a budget. You found a number of free resources to help elevate your learning. So, first off, did I understand that right? And then, secondly, what kinds of resources did you take advantage of and which ones would you say these were? Maybe I don't know if you want to stack, rank them, but yeah, ones that really maybe were better than others, if you want.

Speaker 2: 22:26

Yeah, sure. So I think, as I started it was, you know I'll move back to that, trying to play catch up. So it's it's marketing out. So then it's also the digital marketing aspect of it and learning how it all works together, because I was very much in roles that were very close to digital marketing and even now my, my role is very much in the middle of digital marketing, marketing, ops and how does all of that work together? I would say so it was. I need to learn GA. You know Google Analytics.

Speaker 2: 22:55

I need to learn about websites I need to learn about SEO, can I?

Speaker 1: 22:59

just sorry, just for my own advocation.

Speaker 2: 23:02

When you say digital marketing versus marketing ops like what's the differentiation there for you, For me, I think, and my role in our org is just an interesting one, because my role is just a very unique role in our organization because it's very much marketing ops but it is very much digital marketing and it sits within our digital marketing team, but that's just custom to our team. But then we have other roles in our organization that may be purely marketing ops in their execution, but mine is just specifically that, purely marketing ops in their execution, but mine is just specifically that. But I know that I lean heavily into the marketing ops part of it where it's, you know, working with Salesforce team, working in Marketo, all of those things. Market marketing technology just falls within my remit. But then I sit within the digital marketing team and I'm still closely working on digital marketing campaigns as well, so sorry, maybe I probably asked a poor question.

Speaker 1: 23:59

Digital marketing meaning the website, company, website, and then maybe like paid or organic, social or digital advertising, Like okay, that's the way I think of it too, but I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page Purely, purely like it's website.

Speaker 2: 24:14

And then it's like, okay, we need a form on the website or we need.

Speaker 1: 24:18

It's all connected, it's all connected and I'm actually surprised at how few organizations I've seen been a part of or observed where the website and marketing ops teams like really were not part of, even like they really wasn't a lot of connection, and I've always thought that that there was a missed opportunity. And a lot of us talk about the, the, the importance of aligning sales and marketing overall and I think aligning the digital activities, especially the website in marketing ops, what you're doing with that is really really important and underserved in many places.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Oh, no, I agree, and I think that's one of the things where I really leverage that to its full potential. It's like, okay, where are our like? Because if I'm pulling reporting, it's like oh, I actually ran these campaigns. Right, because that is actually part of what I do. I actually ran these campaigns, so I know where we need to report on it and I know when I see that data coming in through at the back end of you know, analytics tool.

Speaker 2: 26:32

If it's, does it look right? Because I ran those campaigns and I know you know. So I'm kind of doing all of it. What do we need to do to set this up so that this flows through our systems correctly, so that our data is correct, so that this flows through our systems correctly, so that our data is correct? So I think sometimes I tell people, you know, kind of one of my greatest skills is doing all the jobs. Because when you do all the jobs and you see that full connection of how, start to finish on campaign execution across all channels, then I mean that just really helps to give you, give you an edge that others may not have in their roles. When you're just purely doing one part of it, I'll say so yeah, doing all the jobs.

Speaker 1: 27:12

So that helps make each of them easier. I would say Sorry, I took us off a little bit, but maybe get back to some of the free resources that you took advantage of.

Speaker 2: 27:22

Okay, great, so I'll say some of them. I mean, Google has tons of courses and I think anyone who's probably been in digital marketing has taken advantage of all those free Google courses.

Speaker 1: 27:33

I actually would be surprised if a lot Like I don't know what the percentages are, but I bet it's lower than 50%.

Speaker 2: 27:38

Really I do If they haven't, I would suggest they holly.

Speaker 1: 27:42

I know, I know. This is why we're talking to you, Janelle. How do you?

Speaker 2: 27:45

not? How do you not? It's free. How do you not do it?

Speaker 1: 27:47

Yeah, let's guilt everyone who hasn't done it into doing it.

Speaker 2: 27:50

Take a free course this weekend. If you have not taken one in the past year, please do One of the big ones I did, I think, cxl Institute, which is big on like conversion rate optimization, because that one it actually required you to do some homework and I think it was brilliant what they did in that, as part of the free course, you had to write blog posts talking about your experience in the course and what you learned. So it was like, oh, and then, as you're doing it, like oh, they're doing that because you're publishing these blog posts, and then there's SEO that drives more people back to their site. So, and then learning that. So that's why I really learned about you know a lot about just marketing and general growth marketing, doing some of those free courses that they had.

Speaker 2: 28:34

Now, the youtube university, as everyone calls it, is always a fan favorite. There's tons of um, as I was learning marketo, tons of resources on there about marketo, all the Marketo user groups, marketingopscom as we talk here I mean it's a pillar out there as well tons of resources. So I would say, kind of those. I mean taking low cost courses when I could.

Speaker 2: 29:02

Sometimes I think, taking a lower cost course and putting a little more skin in the game kind of helps keep you honest and makes you do it more so than those just free free courses, but more those low cost ones where you really feel like you need to finish it at the end, gives you more incentive to finish it.

Speaker 1: 29:16

Well, I know just so, yeah, full transparency, like not necessarily a marketing apps, but like I have also like have started things either free or no additional cost. If it was, say I was like their linkedin stuff that I'm I pay for a subscription and you know there's additional, you'd access training and I've started it but never not finished it right. So there's like yeah, um, so I think I I get your point about like there's a little bit of skin in the game that can make a difference. Is there any um can you like? Do you have any stories about how some of the like any of these previous verses that that kind of stood out, that um oh yeah, so, um, I think, as I was learning marquetto, there was one that I stumbled across on youtube the automation geeks, um.

Speaker 2: 30:02

So I just found that their learning style, the way they presented the information. It was just nice and clear and concise and I really watched those. And then, a few years down the line, I'm working on a project where, working on our lead lifecycle, and, lo and behold, the consultant that gets assigned to my project is the one and only Grace Bebner. So if you're not in marketing ops and if you've not watched her videos, they're amazing on YouTube. So I mean, even when I just heard a voice on the call, I was like, oh my gosh, this is Grace, she's Marquette O'Royce, she is amazing. So it's like total fangirl.

Speaker 2: 30:41

I mean to me, and you know, I think one of the things about it too, and I'll say this message kind of all consultants out there, anyone who's kind of building that, put these resources out there, because this is how you solidify yourself as a subject matter expert. There's people out there like me watching them, learning from and putting these things into practice. And when it comes time and I need an agency, who am I going to look for? Right, those people who are on LinkedIn, who are posting their subject matter expertise, who. I'm following those thought leaders because it shows me they know what they're talking about and I've used what they're doing and if I could get them one-on-one, just imagine what I can do with their support one-on-one Sure.

Speaker 1: 31:26

I love that. I'm not familiar with either one of those, so now I'm like in the background scrambling to go look at, look look these up? Um, so you started to mention you've done some some paid training and courses. Um, kind of curious. So what were there certain types that you have of training or topics that you would tend to lean towards paid? And if so, how did you make?

Speaker 2: 31:59

the decision when you were willing to pay for something versus using, maybe, a free resource. So I think there's two types of paid. There's paid where okay, I can pay for it myself.

Speaker 2: 32:07

No problem and taking a Coursera or Udemy one of those easier courses where it's 20 bucks or so, Because this is just something I want to learn. Maybe I want to do something on Power Pivots Help me excel for my listing reports, right. But then there's also these that are more specific, I would say, to marketing ops, and those are few and far in between. I think free resources on learning technical parts of marketing technology and systems are out there everywhere, right? So I think anyone can learn how to use HubSpot, Marketo, Eloqua from free resources. But what you can't really learn is how do I start to talk and communicate the projects I'm working on to the C-suite, right? How do I make the CMO care about what I'm doing? How do I show the impact? How do I communicate better?

Speaker 2: 33:01

Because I think one of the things when you're in marketing ops, you're a systems person, right? So your head's down behind the scenes making sure everything flows correctly and you often really forget about how do I show the value of what I'm doing to the organization? How do I show that what I'm doing is bringing revenue? So I would say that's where those paid courses have come in handy, because those are out there on that, and I mean, of course, I think they are worth that value because it's showing how do I show my values internally, right, how do I show the value of what I'm doing and learn to tie revenue to my initiatives. And those are, you know where people have lived that themselves and they're really probably you know, of course they're doing that. That's part of what they want to get paid for, Right? So I think those are more than worth paying for.

Speaker 1: 33:52

Were some of those oriented towards communications, Like how do I communicate what I'm doing, and kind of improving that, or were some of them more like one that I like I people are long-term listeners know that I will where I probably get to go, which being able to speak about the financial, you know, impacts of your work, so that you can not only talk to the CMO but talk to the CFO.

Speaker 2: 34:20

Yeah, so some of them were that. So I've done two actually on marketingopscom. So two of the courses, one being on, I would say, practical tactical attribution was one I paid for and I won't say I paid for it but company paid for it because it was. I was getting ready for this rollout. You know, working on Marketo Measure, how do I really talk about attribution in a way that brings it home, and that was one of those courses that did that and you just don't find that. You find courses out there, you find documentation on how to set, you know, attribution tools up, how to pull reports, but how do I communicate on what this means for marketing and communicate it from a financial standpoint, communicate in a way that shows the impact of marketing efforts. And that's where a course like that was, I would say, you know, huge in helping me do that and I was able to really leverage that and present on a lot of the things I learned on that and roll those into how I was presenting and talking about it internally.

Speaker 1: 35:22

Oh, that makes sense, got it? You just also just sort of hinted at, you know, getting your company to pay for some of the you know the ones that cost money, money, or maybe you took you away for a day or two or something from the office to do it. What kind of support did you have from your leadership and management for doing this?

Speaker 2: 35:46

Yep, as much as I. I mean, there's been times where a realization where we can't put all of our income back into paying for courses. So I think we're kind of tasked and I've always benefited from leadership that has really supported those initiatives and it's just part of my development plan. That's part of it. So each year I try to find at least one course that aligns with what's in my development plan, what's our goals as a company, what are we trying to do? And if you can find courses that align with that, right, If you're finding courses that align with your leadership, that's even easier to get those approved.

Speaker 2: 36:30

And I would say a lot of these courses, even conferences like, you think, Mopsa, Palooza, Adobe Summit I think the creators of them, they know right, this is a challenge. So they provide you even with the materials of here's a letter explaining the benefits of why you should pay for this and take this letter, put your name on it, you know, send it to your leadership. So I think they know that and they're including those resources to help you get it paid for by your leadership.

Speaker 1: 36:58

Yeah, makes sense. So how? I'm curious because of that you've kind of gone through a number of different iterations or sort of steps in your career here. How far in advance are you planning your development plan? Did you have something that was multiple years out? How deliberate are you about what the steps are? What kind of development do you think you're going to need for the next step in your career?

Speaker 2: 37:27

Oh man, that's a tough one. So I think I stumbled into a lot of the first spots in my career and roles opened up and I was kind of just like easily able to go into those roles. So I didn't necessarily think about it for the first, I would say the first half of my career, and I was in new roles, you know, probably every few months, but now I've been in the same role for a few years now. So now I'm really really thinking about it and I think we all know that as a next step, there's you know, there's always this saying of what they tell you and I'm I still struggle with it myself what got you here won't get you there Right, and I think, as you're doing that, there's always that and I'm just like, well, it was good enough to get me here, so why is that? So I think that's, I think I'm thinking that now and working with my leadership and working with mentors and, you know, even doing courses about that.

Speaker 2: 38:23

You know what's next. How do I develop that leadership skill? Because that is the one thing you can fast track. Technical aptitude you can learn how to use a marketing automation platform, an email platform. You can learn. All of that. You can learn your processes, but you cannot learn leadership on your own on the weekend, watching webinars. You cannot just learn how to be a leader without being a leader. It's those things that, as you start to think about what's next, how do I, you know, do I want to manage people? Is that the next step? Are there other opportunities to using your technical aptitude to solve business challenges that you can leverage as well, and I think the marketing ops world is opening up to a lot of that. You know I find myself. You know you see consultants. You see a lot of those people, thought leaders that I follow on LinkedIn and I'm seeing. What you said is that you can't learn.

Speaker 1: 39:36

Well, maybe the way you said it, I would agree with it, but you can't learn leadership skills on the weekend by yourself. I think there are things you can do and there's nothing like, actually, you know, being in the fire. True Truth is right, but I think there are things you can do. I mean, I'm glad to hear that you've been kind of leveraging mentors or coaches. I think those can help you, both in terms of if you're an individual contributor and you're kind of trying to decide, do I want to take the path of leading people? I think they can help you through that thought process, leading people. I think they can help you through that thought process and then they can also help you with that transition. Should you? Should you go? Cause there there are.

Speaker 1: 40:18

It's not that you can't learn those skills, and that's what I really appreciate. These are skills. They're different skills, for sure. I truly believe they can be learned. Some people, like any other thing, right, some people will have a little more of a natural sort of affinity or capability of those skills and certain ones, but I think everyone can learn to be almost same way. If today, apply themselves, can be, can be competent, that the skills that are needed to be a good leader, so I so you mentioned those.

Speaker 1: 40:49

I'm curious now. So this is something I'm all I'm just personally interested in. A lot is like you mentioned mentors, like how have you gone about like pursuing people to be mentors? What was that experience like? Just curious, because I suspect there's a lot of people out there like yeah, these people online or in, uh, in the community, and I would love for them to be able to like I have them as a, as a mentor, but I don't want to go ask right, there's this fear of being rejected or, um, just like, how did you like, how did you approach that?

Speaker 2: 41:28

yeah, um, you made me think of something too, and I'll get to that. But I want to say great point on saying you can't learn leadership. I think maybe what I mean more is you brought it is you can't practice it without being a leader. Right, like you can, absolutely, it's harder.

Speaker 1: 41:43

Well, I think you can again. This is where I think a coach or a mentor can help you like. Think about how do I put myself in a position to learn the skill that I'll need without having the official role anyway? But yeah, no, I think by yourself.

Speaker 2: 41:56

it's no, no, I mean you. You make you.

Speaker 1: 41:58

Yeah, I agree with you, you can't practice it by yourself.

Speaker 2: 42:02

You can't practice it by yourself and I think that's the difference that you can't necessarily get better at it. So I would say, you know, reach out anyone who was in marketing ops and anyone who's talked to me and they probably say, oh gosh, I asked her one question and 30 minutes later we're down this rabbit hole on things. Anyone who's probably in marketing ops, anyone who's a systems person who spent lots of time doing this, when you find someone else who's just as passionate about it as you are, I mean I feel like they love to talk about it and I mean you reach out if. If they turn down that request or they don't want to connect, and I mean that's just is what it is. But I've I've listened to people on podcasts. I have one example there was someone I was listening to on a podcast, on a Marketing Ops podcast. I mean I just reached out on LinkedIn, right, and I just reached out and connected and had wonderful conversations with her. Just because I reached out and I said you know, I heard what you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 42:55

I see so many similarities in your journey that are in mine. How did you overcome those? And I think most people are just willing to help someone out at those stages in their career and share their own experiences. I mean, I know I'm more than willing to, if you know people, when people reach out and have those questions, I'm more than willing to kind of share what did I do to kind of help me get here. And even within organization I've always kind of participated in mentorship programs. So I'm working with a mentor now, working with Life Coach, and even there it's a company benefit to do career coaching. So, and it's included and free.

Speaker 1: 43:35

So if there's something out there, I am going to take advantage of it and I mean, yeah, no, I think it's, it's interesting and I'm a I'm a big fan of mentorship and coaching, uh, whether it's a more informal or formal with you know, compensation kind of thing, um, and I know from my own experience that it may. Maybe this is what you did. So when I've actively pursued, said I'd like this person to be a mentor for me, I went into it with um, trying to have a clear idea of what I wanted out of that relationship. And because invariably these people want to know, like I, I don't think I've ever had anybody who said flat out, no, I don't, I'm not interested. But I, yeah, I think people want to know like is like, what do you want to get out of it? How can I help? So, I think, being clear about what it is you want from that, if it's going to be an ongoing one, how like? Even things like how often you want to meet um, do you want to talk about career coach, career plans? Do you want to talk about specific issues? Right, how to like? There's different ways. You can take advantage of that, um, and I think I'm with you, right, um, it doesn't really hurt to reach out. You may get a no I. The other part I would say is, even when I've had somewhere like, oh, this would work, I've also had a situation I call it two different situations where, like, I had a initial conversation with someone and I realized I think we both realized pretty quickly just not the right fit, right like personality wise or whatever. It just wasn't, wasn't gonna work, and that's okay.

Speaker 1: 45:12

The other one was those where I've had relationships with is men who are mentors for me. Yeah, they kind of they have a, they do have a life right, there's a beginning and an end and, uh, I recognized and made the tough decision as much as I valued their, that relationship in some cases. Well, take one in particular. I can think of who does coaching that's paid. Coaching happens to be.

Speaker 1: 45:38

A friend was doing that and I always felt like I was taking away time for her to get her paid clients and I just said I don't think this is fair to you. I'm not in a position where I want to be paying. I think you should get paid. Like, I still want to be able to call you and I want us to like have a good relationship. I don't want you to feel like you're stuck with this and so that's how we like, we still like talk to her three or four months ago, right, and it's not like it's an, it's the end and it's just the sort of structured part of it is over yeah, I mean I think that's to where I've the, the courses, the documentation, the webinars.

Speaker 2: 46:25

I mean they're always out there, right, and you can always feel like I can learn more, I can learn, but it does get to a point where there's only so much I can learn, unless there's something new out there. Right, there's only so much I can learn. Now, how do I learn to take what I've learned and leverage it even more and get to the next level? And that's where those coaches and those mentorships and those kinds of relationships are crucial for that. So I think but I mean you raised some points they have a life. You have a life, but it's going.

Speaker 2: 46:55

In a way, you need to have a plan, a process, a start and a finish as you're developing those relationships, because you know you can't fall into a mental relationship where it's kind of like OK, what are we doing here, when does this finish? So I think you manage it, just like you're managing, you know, some of your other projects that you're working on have clear goals. What do we want to see at the start and the finish of this and what is, you know, how do we define success? And then leaving that door open as a way out when you need to, because all mental relationships are not going to work.

Speaker 1: 47:27

No, and like your career, that person's career, life, like they evolve, and so it's just a normal thing. It was interesting. I I will wrap it up here I mean I was just. I was listening to or reading something just recently and I I cannot, for the life of me, remember what it was, but it was.

Speaker 1: 47:47

It was something that there's something about our friendships that changes when we kind of get in our early 20s. Right, and one of the one of the. There's a number of aspects and reasons why, but one of them is, yeah, that just people come and go out of our lives. You know a lot more once you get into your, into your 20s, and that holds true for these kinds of relationships too. Right, so it doesn't mean they're gone forever, right, there's still connections, and if you left, it did it well, I'm sure that those people would be happy to help you again, and that's really, I think, the key is right. Don't think about these things as they either have to be forever or never, right, those are not. You don't have to go to those extremes.

Speaker 2: 48:33

Exactly, and you never know right, that person ends up at a company. They have an open role, they're thinking of you, so you never know. I mean, that's just all part of the networking. If you don't do it, if you don't reach out, you make no connections.

Speaker 1: 48:44

Absolutely no, it's valuable, janelle. I wish we had more time, but this, I think, is going to be really helpful for a lot of our listeners who have either struggled thinking that they have to seriously just use only paid, paid resources for learning and how to think about how to how to pitch them if they are asking for support. So thank you for that. Appreciate it. If folks want to connect with you or want you to be a mentor, you know, yeah, what's the best way for them to connect with you and kind of follow what you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 49:17

More than welcome to reach out on LinkedIn and connect with me there, be happy to help in any way I can.

Speaker 1: 49:22

Terrific. I'm not even sure I should keep asking that question, because that's always the answer.

Speaker 2: 49:27

There's always an answer.

Speaker 1: 49:28

Well, there's been a few exceptions, but again, thank you, janelle. This is great. Thank you to our audience for continuing to support us. If you have ideas for topics or guests, or you want to be a guest, uh, feel free to reach out to naomi, mike or me uh, either through linkedin or through the marketing ops community, uh slack or whatever, and we'd be happy to talk to you about it until next time. Bye, everybody.