Michael Hartmann: 0:23

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by MarketingOpscom. I'm your host, michael Hartman. I am joined by just our guest again today. So the guest today is Keri Fabris, who is the founder and chief reframer of CareerFrame, where she provides career executive coaching, leadership development, advising and facilitating, with a focus on team dynamics. Prior to launching CareerFrame, she spent 20 plus years with companies like Google, travelocity, sabre and more, and in leadership for 15 plus years leading national sales and account management teams. She uses tools like Clifton's StrengthFinder, emotional intelligence, situational leadership and various other frameworks, some of which we will discuss here today, to help leaders and teams thrive at effective communication that drives engagement, energy and accountability toward impactful results. You've got a great background, keri, so thank you for joining us today.

Carrie Fabris: 1:18

It's such a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Michael Hartmann: 1:21

Yeah, I think this is going to be good. I think when we talked before, I think I was yeah, is this something that would be for everybody, for people who are leaders? And I think it's going to be the former right, so, but I'm looking forward to talk to you about your career growth and having you share some of your recommendations from your experience, both in the seats, if you will, as well as being a coach, mentor, whatever. So why don't we start there? One of the things that you a term that you used with me when we first talked was this concept of return on energy, which I think I was having a hard time articulating what you mean by that. So why don't we start there? What do you mean by that, and how can our listeners, whether they're individual contributors or people managers, apply this? Say today, tomorrow, right, this week.

Carrie Fabris: 2:12

Yeah, happy to dive into that, and yes, I don't know that this is going to be a typical episode of what your audience is used to living or listening to.

Michael Hartmann: 2:20

We don't have a typical episode.

Carrie Fabris: 2:22

Not the marketing expert, definitely the leadership and leadership expert and just helping people be the better version of themselves at work and in life as well. And so return on energy, or what I also call ROE, is this concept that I came up with. Energy is really important to me personally, and I'm you know how we feel so different when our energy is high, when our energy is low. So started playing with this concept and, if you think about it, it's very similar to an ROI. Okay, so we're all familiar with ROI and that's primarily a concept and method that is going to help us assess financial performance and return. And so ROE return on energy is a concept or method that's used more for assessing your energy level or the worth or the reserve of energy that you're using towards something.

Carrie Fabris: 3:13

So, for example, if we are faced with doing a task, committing to a decision, making a choice, most of us innately are going to have a feeling that either we like this or we don't like this. Sometimes there's a I'm not sure I need more context, I don't know enough about it and, as a certified Gallup Clifton strengths coach, I want to emphasize the importance of playing to one's strengths. And so that was that mean to play to our strengths. It means that we're doing things that we innately enjoy because they energize us versus drain us. Um, we'll get energized doing certain things, but we will also get drained by doing certain things, and so how we apply this concept is kind of simple, and let me set this up by saying your vibe attracts your tribe. You ever heard that saying?

Michael Hartmann: 4:05

No, I mean it sounds like a birds of a feather kind of thing. But yeah, it makes sense.

Carrie Fabris: 4:10

I saw it in a Dove chocolate wrapper one time, not going to lie and I was like love this but it is basically your vibe attracts your tribe. Which is what you're putting out, is kind of what you're going to get back.

Michael Hartmann: 4:20

Yes.

Carrie Fabris: 4:20

And so you know sometimes when you're like, are you vibing? Are you vibing right now? If you look at it as a vibe, is it a good vibe or is it a not awesome vibe? Are you high, are you low with how you're feeling?

Carrie Fabris: 4:33

So when we look at this very simple four-step process of figuring out your return on energy, first step is verify your feelings. Okay, so kind of check in with yourself. How does this task decision situation make you feel? Does it excite you, motivate you or drain you from an energy perspective? If it feels exhausting, before you even begin, you probably want to pause and assess.

Carrie Fabris: 4:59

Second step is identifying the impact, so kind of evaluating what's the potential payoff for what I'm about to do with this task, commitment or choice. Is it going to move you forward? Is it going to strengthen a relationship? Is it going to create something meaningful? If the outcome's valuable, it's probably worth the energy. If it's not, you want to reconsider.

Carrie Fabris: 5:21

And then the third step is really going to balance the cost, or consider what it's going to cost you from a time, effort, emotional bandwidth, money perspective, and can your energy be spent better elsewhere, or is this the right path? So if the investment's too high for a little gain, you want to look for alternatives. If the investment short or long-term which I'm sure we'll get to talking about that as far as living in a world of immediate gratification these days then you might want to stay the course. And then the fourth step is execute or eliminate. So if the energy is well spent, if it fuels the growth and success moving forward, execute it. If it depletes you and you cannot feel good and justify the return, you let it go.

Carrie Fabris: 6:07

And you don't want to get it.

Michael Hartmann: 6:10

So when we first talked about this concept of energy, I actually thought of a different assessment. I thought of Myers-Briggs, where you have the introversion, extroversion right, which has got that whole yeah, great. One Like you get energy or you lose energy in either domain, depending on what your preference is. So I mean, are you talking about because I think, I think, I think a lot of our listeners like me might think, oh, when you talk about re-eternity, that means like I'm going to be the cheerleader, I'm going to be extroverted, like extroverted Is. I mean, is that what you're talking about or is this something like?

Carrie Fabris: 6:49

if I'm an introvert, cause I might be going like that's really hard for me, it is going to be draining to do that. So how does that play into this? Is it different related? Yeah, great question. So it's not necessarily dependent on extrovert, introvert, because extroverts and introverts, regardless of which category you fall in, you're still a human, you're still uniquely you, and energy lands differently for you, Sure?

Carrie Fabris: 7:03

So, you know, kind of stereotypical introvert needs time away from people, quiet, alone time to decompress and kind of build that energy back up. That's just that depends on the person. Extroverts might get more energy from walking in a room, socializing and meeting new people, but I'm talking more about each person's innate feeling of am I feeling energized today on various levels, various categories, or am I depleted? So, like you and I are both in the DFW area and the weather is like we're living in London right now, and I love, I love London, one of my favorite cities.

Michael Hartmann: 7:45

I thought about that every day this week.

Carrie Fabris: 7:47

This weather is like I'm like where is the sun? I need the sun, right yeah, and it is impacting me energetically and so it's it's more that it's kind of like what impacts us based on our personality type so.

Michael Hartmann: 7:58

So it's also not motivation. I mean, you're talking about something that's got bits and pieces I think of like introversion, extroversion, motivation, not motivated, not motivated. It feels like yeah, okay. And there's another bit and I think it was the third step you described where you're kind of doing a mental calculation. It almost sounds like within ROE that process, you're doing an ROI right Like a mini one right Because it's a balance the cost. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a juice worth the squeeze, right.

Carrie Fabris: 8:27

Yes, yes, it is very much an investment. It's an investment of your energy versus an investment of dollars, which, within energy, it's an investment of time and an investment of emotions. It's basically the human side, the human skills of what you're investing.

Michael Hartmann: 8:45

So just one more thing and then we can maybe move on. But, um, the another thought that comes to me, like, like, I love this idea, right, investing time into things that are going to produce results, that are also not going to completely drain, if it's of energy at the same time. Almost all this, and like this is a lesson I've had to teach my kids. Right, we all have to do things we don't really want to do sometimes. So how does that factor into this, right? Do you just kind of like figure out, okay, what is it? What level of energy do I need to put towards this that I don't really want to do, because I have to do it, but I don't want to end up not be able to do the things I do want to do.

Carrie Fabris: 10:36

Yeah, when it comes to, when it comes, to put you know, assessing, putting energy towards something you don't want to do, that's where I think this method and this concept is really important, because, as part of the evaluation process or the assessing and the balancing, the cost and things like that is can I see? Can I see the gain? So there's something that I say often to my clients, which is pain is the road to joy. Unfortunately, most times I have yet not saying it's not there, but I've yet to find a situation where you got joy without pain. So it is assessing the whole cycle Again.

Carrie Fabris: 11:18

A lot of us live in this immediate gratification I want to feel good right now, and a lot of times that's not the case. We have to be able to look to the future and just say can I see this paying off? And being responsible sucks sometimes. Yeah, it does. It's not fine. You have to be responsible. If we can see what that responsibility can lead to in the future and it's a good thing, then that's where we tap into resilience, we tap into courage, we tap into growth, mindset, all of these things to get there. Some things are going to be pretty immediate. You might think, oh my gosh, this sounds amazing. It's totally my jam. I love this stuff. Let's go. You focus on it, you act, you get the great results you want the conclusion you were hoping for Everyone's happy, amazing, immediate, aren't we? Other times again, you've got to see the importance in the future and it's the long, sometimes hard work ahead to achieve that desired return. But you're still going to invest that energy because there's a higher purpose that's pulling you to do so.

Michael Hartmann: 12:24

So return might be a delay. Yeah, I mean, I think that that that scenario you're talking about, where there's a longer term delay, I immediately go towards leadership things like where you're trying to, you know, coach or mentor somebody who maybe is not performing as well as they could, and you see that and you want to help them. Right, it takes time to invest in that.

Carrie Fabris: 12:45

That and like startups, people, founders of startups, like they have this vision, they have this dream, they birthed this baby and they've got to. You know, they got to go and get capital on them, they got to fundraise, they got to build the team and most startups don't just. Oh my gosh, instant you started this last week, I'd like to buy you for $1 billion, like that doesn't work that way.

Carrie Fabris: 13:06

So that's a perfect example of investing the energy for that hopefully high return later down the road. And then there you know again there's other quick wins Like I really want a burger right now. I'm going to get in my car and go get a burger. I'm going to take my energy and go drive down the street and you get that burger and you're eating it. You're so happy. So it just depends. And what I love about this concept is you literally can apply it to absolutely everything. Just to maximize your time, your energy, what you're focusing on and and and. When we do this, it ensures that we're staying at that high energy level. A whole lot of not awesome stuff follows when our energy is low.

Carrie Fabris: 13:47

Yeah, our mind goes in not great places.

Michael Hartmann: 13:51

So this immediate gratification kind of concept, you know it. It maybe it's because I haven't really traveled a lot of places, I've, you know, but it feels like it's a particularly American, maybe Western kind of scenario where people are just expecting go, go, go, go, go go.

Carrie Fabris: 14:09

And younger and younger people.

Michael Hartmann: 14:17

Yeah, I mean it's how does like, how does like, how do we, how do we help our listeners think about this return on energy when fig the, the return part is down the road? Right, how do they? How do, can they think about that?

Carrie Fabris: 14:27

yeah, so. So this is where um and again this is, this is human skills. We're talking about predominantly right and the, and I talk about mich, and so this is when I encourage people to stop and kind of do an RPM, which is what's the result I'm going for, what's the purpose, what's the massive action I need to take, and it's once you understand why you want something so badly. The next step is patience and making sure that each day, you're doing something that's moving you forward.

Carrie Fabris: 15:02

Um if you are not doing things that are moving you forward and you're just expecting it to land in your lap. You know there might be some growth opportunity there to think about this differently. Um, as I said, I think with the Maybe a little bit of adulting.

Michael Hartmann: 15:15

That needs to happen.

Carrie Fabris: 15:17

Yeah, I was going to say with, with, with younger, with younger people, and you and I have kids, I think, that are similar to the same age and I know they're not listening to this podcast. But younger generations have grown up with immediate. We remember before there were cell phones and before there was the fax machine, you had to go to the library to look up something. Yeah, a microfiche, microfiche, yeah.

Michael Hartmann: 15:40

People were like what is?

Carrie Fabris: 15:41

microfiche, what is that? And dial-up and just all that stuff. And so it is learning how to be patient and understanding that. You know, sometimes we speed up. I mean we slow down to speed up.

Michael Hartmann: 15:54

Yes.

Carrie Fabris: 15:55

It's the classic. Sorry to get all cheesy, but it's the tortoise and the hare kind of thing. Sometimes slow and steady wins the race.

Michael Hartmann: 16:03

So it is ready, ready aim fire, sort of ready fire aim right. Yes, yes, exactly so.

Carrie Fabris: 16:08

It's active practice and awareness of how much you want something. Think about how much energy you're putting into, how badly you want this thing right now and you're not going to get it right now. Is that thought process a good ROE? Probably not Right. So even when we're thinking about our energy, we can do an ROE process on the thought about energy and that gratification.

Michael Hartmann: 16:34

Well, I mean, I'm sure everyone has had a scenario like, oh, I need to put away six things, right, I have two hands and two arms. I could carry them all, but the likelihood that I'll make it to the destination, like putting food away or something, and a number of times I've done that and then drop something. So I was thinking I'm doing something that could go quickly and it turns out to be taking two, three, four times as long because I dropped something. It splatters everywhere, Something breaks right?

Carrie Fabris: 17:02

Yeah, because you're moving too fast.

Michael Hartmann: 17:03

Yeah, or I'm, or I'm. I think that's. That's a scenario that one's hitting home, because this actually happened in my house Not with me last week, same friend.

Carrie Fabris: 17:19

Well, earlier you asked about um. You know how to apply this in in the spirit of immediate gratification.

Carrie Fabris: 17:26

So I've got some examples for your for you all, your listeners around at the end of workplace, for example, for you, all your listeners around in the workplace, for example. So some things that can be immediate ROE is delegation. So if you're just spinning your wheels, working on something, it's not in your strength zone, or if you're a leader and you have someone on your team that you can move something to delegate it. Just give something to someone that you trust, take it off your plate, you know it's taken care of and you're going to reserve your energy instead of like an exhausting email thread back and forth. Okay, that's another thing. Just like back and forth, back and forth. Just go old school, pick up the phone, discuss everything for about five minutes, and that too is an immediate ROE, because there's clarity, we got understanding, we're not having any emails on this topic. And another very simple application of ROE that I would love to see more people take advantage of, and a lot do not hurts my heart a little bit which is taking breaks throughout the day.

Michael Hartmann: 18:29

Okay, so work 50.

Carrie Fabris: 18:30

Yeah, we all are. But work 50 minutes, 5-0, step away for 10. Watch your productivity and your energy increase. I mean, taking that 10-minute break is going to help you work smarter, not harder, and that is an instant positive ROE. I recently I'm not sure what took me so long to do this, but last year I moved all of my 60 minute sessions to 50 minute sessions. Dramatic impact, positive impact, Like I would look at my calendar and perhaps some of you can relate to this and it is non-freaking-stop Zoom after Zoom after Zoom after Zoom, or team after team after team to call after call. It's just like non-stop. Stop, Zoom after zoom after zoom after zoom, or team after team after team to call after call. It's just like nonstop. And it was causing me stress just to look at the visual of it. And just changing to those 15 minute sessions, that gives me 10 minutes to stand up, walk away, refill the water, shake it off, prepare for the next meeting, decompress from the last meeting.

Michael Hartmann: 19:26

Yeah.

Carrie Fabris: 19:26

Makes such an amazing difference and it's a it is an immediate impact on ROE.

Michael Hartmann: 19:34

Yeah, an amazing difference and it's a. It is an immediate impact on roe. Yeah, and I'd like it was true, it's. I feel. I almost feel guilty about this because I know all this right, yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with at least was with brain research and how well, first off, how little we know, but how much we're learning in the last few years and they, every time we talk about this right Breaks, not multitasking, like all these things are really well known to be good habits to do, and I still am terrible about it. Just like people are going to see me drinking water here. It's about the only time I drink water through the day because I just simply forget I get busy.

Carrie Fabris: 20:10

There's a lot of achievers through the day because I just simply forget I get busy. There's a lot of achievers From a strengths perspective. Achiever is the number one talent theme that shows up the most often in top five. Okay, case in point, and achievers are usually heads down. I got to crank it out. I got stuff to do and it's a different concept to think you could actually do more if you took breaks throughout the day. So yeah, I'm here to help you figure that out, michael. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Michael Hartmann: 20:39

I need that nudge. It's interesting the idea of delegation. I think a lot of people who especially if they're this is one of the things when I coach people who are new to people management delegation is one that seems like it'd be an obvious one where you can gain some advantage. But it's really hard for these people, because it was hard for me too. What's really hard is to to to hand this off to somebody. You can't just go go do it Right, unless you happen to have somebody who works for you, you know can do it. Do it If it's something, a new skill or new things that they have to learn. Somebody who works for you, you know, can do it. Do it If it's something, a new skill or new things that they have to learn. You have to teach them. So you have to invest in that. Right, yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah.

Carrie Fabris: 21:17

Well, that that and trust them.

Michael Hartmann: 21:20

Yes.

Carrie Fabris: 21:20

So people who have, you know, are high responsibility. They, they said they would get something done to somebody else, and so the thought of passing it to someone else is like, oh my gosh, but what if they don't do it right? So the adage of I'll just do it myself, because it'll be faster than do it myself, versus teaching someone how to do it, and then you're just stuck in this loop. So yeah, so I do encourage people if they have trust issues, do not delegate anything to that person if you don't trust them, because it's got to be like hand it off and let go. Otherwise you're annoying, like how about now? Did you get it done? Well, how about now? Are you doing it right? And now it becomes micromanagement, and no one wants that, not that I have met so far.

Michael Hartmann: 22:06

I have not met anyone who's admitted. I've never run into anyone who would admit that they want, like, being micromanaged. I have had people who I've worked with who were better when they were micromanaged. I just never said that Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe micromanage is not this like constant follow-up, but more like here's the list of things you need to do.

Carrie Fabris: 22:26

Right, well, that's also classic situational leadership, as far as how we step up to lead someone based on how they need to be led.

Michael Hartmann: 22:35

Yes.

Carrie Fabris: 22:35

And some people do need to be told because, on a specific task, because their ability and willingness is low. If they have high willingness but low ability, we coach them, we don't tell them. We coach them. And then if there's low ability or high ability, low willingness, it's usually insecurity, so we encourage them. And when there's high ability or high ability, low willingness, it's usually insecurity, so we encourage them. And when there's high ability and high willingness, we trust them.

Carrie Fabris: 22:58

Yeah, that was a boom, like flash of situational leadership right there in like 10 seconds or less.

Michael Hartmann: 23:03

No, I mean at that point. Another thing that I do with a lot of new leaders is, like your job is to adapt to your team, right? Not the other way around, yes, so yeah, you need to play the whole play to their strengths scenario.

Michael Hartmann: 23:18

So, um, all right. So another concept you and I talked about is this, uh, magic framework, which I know is an acronym. Acronym, um, what, what is that and how is it? Maybe a little bit about like just high level, what is that? Maybe is it tied to what we just talked about, the roe, or is it kind of a different concept altogether yeah, so there definitely is some similarities.

Carrie Fabris: 23:46

um, I think we all need a little magic in our lives, especially at work, and this has nothing to do with spells and wands and Harry Potter, even though I'm a huge fan.

Carrie Fabris: 24:03

This is just another simple framework to check yourself, to make sure you are bringing the magic to your team. And how do you know if you are doing that, when you can take inventory on five categories. Doing that, when you can take inventory on five categories, so it's mindset, accountability, generosity, intention and courage. And if you have all of these and they're also coming from a positive place of strengths, then you're definitely bringing magic to your team. So it's a fun concept to work with. Do you want me to go deeper?

Michael Hartmann: 24:30

on those. Yeah, I mean, we'd love to go like so let me replay so, mindset, accountability, generosity, which is an interesting one by itself, attention encourage, so, yeah, so maybe walk through those one at a time, yeah.

Carrie Fabris: 24:43

Okay, so, yeah. So when we think about mindset, back to what I said your vibe attracts your tribe, okay, and what you're putting out is kind of what you're going to get. One of my favorite quotes is a Tony Robbins quote, actually, and it says where focus goes, energy flows. And so it's again that same thing when you're putting something out, you're going to get back that reflects what you're putting back. So, when it comes to mindset, absolutely figure out your ROE when it comes to how you're thinking and all the energy you're spending thinking about things. And is it positive thinking, is it negative thinking? And when I say positive, I don't mean jazz hands, everything's awesome. That's not realistic. It's more of having this optimism, and so it's growth mindset versus a fixed mindset, it's open versus closed. It's, you know, realizing that our attitudes are contagious and it impacts the culture around us. So having that strong, encouraging mindset is really important as a leader, especially the A. So showing accountability, and this is having a high say-do ratio. It's doing what you say you will do, it's being reliable, it's responsible, it's role modeling, that for other people and holding others accountable as well, and so accountability and productivity go hand in hand. And so nothing drives me more nuts than a leader that basically do as I say, not as I do, and it's like why would people want to follow you if you're not going to show that you're accountable as well?

Carrie Fabris: 26:22

And then generosity, like you said, is kind of an interesting one. This is really where emotional intelligence lives. So this is about being generous with your compassion and with the human side. Okay, so if you know empathy is I work with a lot of leaders who actually have low empathy, according to their assessment, and always tell them I'm like doesn't mean you don't care, it means that it's uncomfortable, it's not, it drains you to get in the boat with that person and their issue.

Carrie Fabris: 26:54

You can still be generous with. I see you, are you okay? Is there something I can help you with? I'll let you know if I can or cannot deliver to that. And really being that compassionate leader, it's also keeping in mind. I kind of cringe whenever I hear someone say remove all emotion from this conversation, because humans cannot do that. Humans cannot physically, neurologically, all of the things cannot remove all emotion. But we can use our emotion intelligently and we can be generous with our time and our energy that we're giving to somebody, as long as we're seeing again a return on that. Energy Leaders sometimes they put up with too much for too long from poor performers and that's a drain on energy.

Carrie Fabris: 27:46

So it's being generous to a point, but not to a fault.

Michael Hartmann: 27:50

So is there? The word that keeps coming to my head is another G word, which is grace right, which I think is part of this. Maybe that's what you're getting to, but I always think it's funny, because we've talked about trust right and trusting in others, but I have always said, like, trust also requires grace right, so when someone you know doesn't live up to what you had expected them to do, there's some grace to a point, right, that's that like. I love that these all go together. Right, the accountability and the generosity sound like they would be opposites, but they can. I think they the way you look. You need to look at them as things that can work together.

Carrie Fabris: 28:24

Totally can work together and you know it's. It's a great reminder that all of us are going through something. All of us have our own journeys. We have our own experiences, our own pasts. We're thrown together at work with this team that we didn't choose right and we're just supposed to. Everything's supposed to be great and good luck. And so, having grace, giving grace, generosity, you know, things like the patience, things like that you don't have to really like the person. It's more of just taking the time to appreciate your generosity could even be I'm going to step away and I'm going to let you go, do you? So you're being generous with not doing this to them like rah, rah, rah right and verbally attacking. Just be generous and step away. So yeah, so I could absolutely see how grace and generosity can go hand in hand. Got it Okay? The I in magic is intention.

Michael Hartmann: 29:20

Intention okay.

Carrie Fabris: 29:21

And it's simple, it's lead with purpose and meaning and it's kind of all of the above. It's the mindset, it's the accountability, it's the generosity, it's being intentional and being a clear communicator, taking action with intention. And you know, a great example of this was with remote workers Okay, when? So I've always led a remote team, dating back to 2007, when I started my leadership career at Google and I was in Dallas, leading a team in Atlanta, and there was no this, there was no video then, right, like we had go-to meeting where you want to see my desktop, but there wasn't the video piece. Right, and you had to be intentional. And when COVID hit, there were so many people and companies freaking out like I can't connect with my coworker. Yes, you can. Yes, you can, because actually we have video now, like I can see you, whereas back in the day I either had to email you or call you. And so intentional leadership is not believing and I'm just going to call them excuses like that.

Carrie Fabris: 30:34

And this is coming from someone who's an extrovert and I love being around people- Yep, same here. So the extroverts? I get it, you're like, but I need my people, I understand, and it's an excuse to just well, I have to get on video. Oh yeah, you do, it's being intentional.

Carrie Fabris: 30:50

So it's doing everything with purpose and um and showing that you care and you're willing to go a little bit above and beyond to make an impact, even if that means I'm going to FaceTime you right now so I can see your face you know it's it's uh this being intentional.

Michael Hartmann: 31:08

Yeah, I try all the time to be on camera as much as I can, right, yeah, okay, we've got one more right, see, and I want to. I want to come back, once you get through that, to the impacts of COVID for a second. But, yeah, keep going.

Carrie Fabris: 31:21

Yeah, and then, lastly, the C is courage, and it's doing hard things with grace, like you said, and compassion, and it's role modeling, the way it's creating stability and hope and trust with your team. It's being the person others want to follow as being able to have respectful, hard conversations and also be able to motivate people and encourage people along the way. Um, courage is is such a valuable character trait for leaders and just being a courageous leader, those are the people that others want to follow. So bringing magic to the team as a leader is being mindful of your mindset, driving accountability, being generous with your time and your energy. As long as someone doesn't take advantage of it, you still have to protect your ROE, being intentional and having that courage.

Michael Hartmann: 32:16

Yeah, yeah, and this is all worked together so well. I mean, I'm just like all these things like cause you could, with the generosity, be taken advantage of, which requires courage to have the tough conversation right. That says hey, I think you're taking advantage of me, maybe courage to have the tough conversation right. That says, hey, I think you're taking advantage of me, maybe not that explicitly right, but I think that's it's really. It's a fascinating sort of way of thinking about it. I love how they all play together. Okay, so go ahead, go ahead.

Carrie Fabris: 32:43

Oh, I was just going to say. I know we're talking. We've been talking a lot about leadership Like this is also applicable for individuals too, because leadership is simply influence. It's not a title on a piece of paper, on a work chart with direct reports, it is simply influence, and so, as long as you're influencing people around you, that is leadership, and so you can bring your own magic to the team using the same framework regardless if you have direct reports or in a leadership role or not.

Michael Hartmann: 33:15

No, I point that out, I totally agree with that, and I was going to get to that too, because I know, early in my career I didn't always feel like I was a leader. Um, some of that was just confidence and things like that. But also, just to think, I happen to work in places that very kind of very hierarchical, um, some more formal and some more informal, but I think it's it's. You know, one of the things I've tried to do when I have been in sort of the you know, manager roles is to try to provide an environment where people can be leaders as well, right? So, whether that's helping them to learn new skills, putting them in positions to test their courage, right. So just tell you things that are hard, that they may not be comfortable doing, but it will be beneficial for them in the long run. So I'm totally with you on that. So, all of our listeners out there, just make sure that if you're taking notes, take notes whether you're a people leader or not. 100%, 100% Okay.

Michael Hartmann: 34:15

So I'm curious, just yeah, cause he brought up COVID, one of the things that I thought the whole, like all the lockdowns and work remote and all that had. Was it really exposed some of that? Like, we are all human, human, right, we all have emotions, we all have shit going on behind us, you know, whether we we bring it to work or not, and I think I think that's actually gonna, in the long run, going to be a very good thing, right, because I think then, as a leader, you can, it gives you the I don't think a lot of leaders felt like they could think about that with their team. Right, it had to be a business, so there's this box that you could work in, and the same for the people coming to work, right, you know they feel like, oh my my home life stuff, right, is is my kitchen's, not my office yeah, I can't, I can't bring that in, or my kids are, you know, going off the rails or whatever.

Michael Hartmann: 35:08

Um, or you get more extreme, like we just had a miscarriage and I don't want to tell anybody about it, like things like that that are like, uh, it feels like some of that got brought out into the open, which I think ultimately could it could be a good thing. Um, I do think for a lot of people it was a little harder to make those connections right. I, I'm with you, right, I think it's a bit of an excuse. I think you know how tools can enable that and you have to put in a little extra effort.

Michael Hartmann: 35:32

Yeah, the downside I've seen and I'm continuing to see is like it's really hard for some people to separate, right Cause. So, like, yeah, you can see my background, right, I'm in the middle of my house, that's where I have my virtual studio, and it's like you know, if I'm up here I'm working, like I just keep going until I realize, oh, it's dark out and I hear people downstairs make dinner, waiting for dinner. So, like, are you seeing some of the same things? Are you seeing that with your clients? And like, are they dealing with some of this stuff and how is this framework going to help them with that?

Michael Hartmann: 36:07

As far as separating, Well separating and I think, as we've talked a little about, yeah, that separation part I think is really tough for some people.

Carrie Fabris: 36:19

Yeah, I so. I am seeing it get better. It's hard to believe it's been five years. It's crazy. Yeah, don't know where that five years went and I have no concept of time. I just is it before COVID or after COVID, bc or AC? More people are back in the office. That continues to increase company by company. It's definitely seen that with my clients as more people are coming back to the office at a minimum, you know, three days a week. There's definitely a discipline. There's an intentional discipline between separating and turning things off. You know we are 100% responsible for ourselves. We control what we do, what we say, what we think, how we feel. This is a hard concept for some people to wrap their brain around, but no one can make you feel any way. You choose to feel that way. Yeah, if you want more information on how that works, listen to man's search for meaning by victor frankl and you will learn you.

Carrie Fabris: 37:30

You know what I'm saying Michael.

Michael Hartmann: 37:32

So for anybody who does not know this book, it is maybe this I think I've heard it's like the second most read book in the in the world behind the Bible so unbelievable it is incredible. I didn't read it until a few years ago and it blew my mind.

Carrie Fabris: 37:47

Yeah, it's, it's. It's the most incredible book, incredible story around mindset and how to be in control of how you feel, and I mean it is a perfect example of being a hundred percent responsible for you.

Michael Hartmann: 38:06

Yeah.

Carrie Fabris: 38:06

And so we all have a choice. And so, if, if, if someone's struggling with working at home, be proactive, do something to change the environment at home. You know, if you, if the kitchen table is your office, okay, well, is there. A same way, you could add a certain move your kitchen table somewhere, put a blind you know one of those little stackable blind things around it to separate it. Could you change? You know, instead of it being the table, can you move to a different part of the of your apartment, of your house, something like it is? There's a discipline and an intention between making sure you have the right environment, because, again back to ROE yeah, are you? Is your energy up? Are you having a good return on your energy based on the environment you're in? Yeah, and at home, you control that environment, usually now, if you have roommates.

Carrie Fabris: 39:00

There's a discussion that needs to happen. If you're living at home with parents, get, have a conversation. But you still are in control of creating that environment for you and so I think that's interesting.

Michael Hartmann: 39:11

I I have a. I have a relative, brother-in-law who is a longtime police officer and I was talking to him a couple of years ago and I asked him like how do you because I know that it's really hard for police officers going in and out of the stuff that they see every day- oh, I'm sure Like not bring it home.

Michael Hartmann: 39:31

And I said, how do you manage that? It was really interesting to me that he, he, he said the thing that happens and the rest of the like my wife and the girls know, like when I put on the uniform, right, I'm now in work mode, right, and don't like, yes, I'm just that I'm in, like me, work mode, and then when I come home, first thing I do change clothes and and then sometimes take a few minutes to to sort of to get ready.

Michael Hartmann: 40:01

And it's like it was interesting to me because I've always been like. I grew up in a time where, you know, suit and tie was the norm, and so for me, even when I started working remotely, or even when places got to be casual or business casual, I still like for me, if I don't get up, take a shower, shave, get dressed like I'm working A routine, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think that's so. Are those kinds of things helpful, you think?

Carrie Fabris: 40:27

They are helpful Absolutely. I mean, if you're going to be in pajamas, you know. And again on camera we see from here up right Pajamas on the bottom and again on camera.

Carrie Fabris: 40:36

We see from here up right Pajamas on the bottom but button shirt on the top.

Carrie Fabris: 40:39

You know it, there is some psychological thing that makes an impact, um, you know, my husband and I, whenever he works from home too, so whenever we have a good presentation, we stand like I'm standing right now, um, because you just it's, it's physical, it's a powerful position to be in. So it's changing that physiology, changing what you're focused on, change your language, it's changing the state that you're in, and clothes is part of it. So I'm so glad you said that, because I was going to give a similar example of when you know if you're with someone or you're just like, and it doesn't feel good when you leave that person, change clothes, do something to almost like shed off what you had in that situation, take a shower, rinse all that stuff off, like. Those things matter. And it's also sometimes good to um, every morning I'll just write in a journal and it is stream of consciousness and I don't reread it because it probably would not make a lot of sense, and it is just clearing my head.

Michael Hartmann: 41:37

I've tried multiple times to do a journal. It is not for me and so like, but yeah.

Carrie Fabris: 41:43

I was just recently given and some of your listeners probably have this book If they're creatives. It's called the artist's way, and she talks about writing.

Carrie Fabris: 41:50

We talked about running morning pages and someone just gave me this book recently and I took it as okay. There's some reason. This book was put into my hands and so that's what I started doing, which is the morning pages of just writing through the consciousness and I don't know what it means and what it says and don't read it again, and so there are just ways to get us mentally in a better place, but it definitely takes discipline, some structure, routine, and even if you're someone you're like Carrie, I don't like structure.

Michael Hartmann: 42:32

I, and even if you're someone, you're like Carrie. I don't like structure, I like to be spontaneous, fly by the spontaneous. So I think about and I don't know if this is true. I think it's a Steve Jobs story, right, where Steve Jobs basically wore the same thing every day yes, black turtleneck. And I've heard of others too, where it's like part of why they do that is that they're not using energy to think about what am I going to wear today. Right, so they're using that energy towards other stuff.

Carrie Fabris: 42:56

And I think, yes, so it eliminates he had only so much cognitive space and he didn't want it. That's exactly right. Yeah, I love that story. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's so channeling my Steve jobs today with my black tops.

Michael Hartmann: 43:08

Oh well, I can't I did put some energy. Well, good, I'm glad we appreciate that. So one of the things that I think some of our listeners will go to will maybe be thinking in the back of their minds is okay, this is all really interesting and great, but those are like soft skills, right? Yes, term is just in general, like I think it undermines it, but, um, cause, I think a lot of skills can be, can be learned, even if they're not. Quote hard skills, right. What, what, what do you?

Carrie Fabris: 43:49

what's your take on all that? Yeah, I I definitely think that referring to the stuff I'm talking to as soft skills can diminish the importance and the impact in professional and personal success. And really, in reality, these skills are like communication, emotional intelligence, adaptability, leadership, et cetera. They're really anything but soft. They are essential and they are learnable and they're measurable competencies that are going to help us with collaboration and decision making, et cetera, and the idea that these skills are like purely innate is kind of a common misconception, I think. So some individuals may have a natural inclination towards certain interpersonal abilities right, and research has shown that with intentional practice, coaching, feedback, we can all significantly improve in these areas of, again, communication, active listening, conflict resolution I like to talk about having constructive conflict and people are like wait what Well, I'm a big fan of maybe you've heard of it crucial confrontations.

Carrie Fabris: 44:48

Crucial confrontations. I think we talked about that the first time we spoke.

Michael Hartmann: 44:52

Yeah, I tell people all the time, one of the reasons I love it I've even recommended it to my kids because I think it's a life, it's a, it's a tool, it's a framework that can help you in business and in personal life, and all over. Yes.

Carrie Fabris: 45:03

Yes, so, yeah. So, just as we invest time in developing technical skills okay With taking a class to get better on coding or, you know, technology, innovation, whatever we can develop these soft skills, or let's just call them human skills. Okay. So I think human skills might sound- how about just call them skills?

Carrie Fabris: 45:21

They're just skills, necessary skills, and we can do that, again, through intention and training and coaching and just real world application and awareness and practice. And I think the more you know, more we do that, the better, because more research is coming out that EQ is a higher indication of success at work than IQ, and you know it's, it's. It's important and again, especially as the workforce gets younger, the younger folks I don't want to call them kids, but younger, younger people are caring about human skills more than the Gen Xers, the Boomers, those generations, the Millennials, the Gen Zs, the Gen Y, I don't even know what generation we're on now, but those generations are bringing this amazing, refreshing look on human skills. And that's also why there was the mass exodus during COVID. The whole people leaving it was because the world is coming to an end. Why am I giving all my energy to a company that doesn't see me, hear me, appreciate me? And that's where a lot of people left their jobs.

Carrie Fabris: 46:33

That's interesting, yeah, so the human skills are crucial to success and organizational health.

Michael Hartmann: 46:38

Yeah Well, and I think I like I will just reiterate I believe, I truly believe that those skills can be learned. You can get better at you. May not be 100%, you may not be the most eloquent gifted public speaker, but you can get better at it, right.

Carrie Fabris: 46:52

Well, and again, sorry to like if it sounds harsh I'm I'm a little bit of a tough love coach. It's an excuse, yeah, it's an excuse, and it is also tied to our energy. Okay, so it's all connected. It is an excuse to not. I can't do that. Well, I can't, or you won't. Very different you can try.

Carrie Fabris: 47:20

Yeah, If you won't do something and it makes me uncomfortable, it's a drain again, not a good ROE. They don't do it. At least explore that whole thing versus just going. Oh, that's not me. I could never learn that you can, you won't because it is a low ROE and that's okay. But let's just call it what it is.

Michael Hartmann: 47:38

Yeah, it reminds me of one of my all-time favorite quotes, which I do not have memorized, but it's the you can look it up. The Theodore Roosevelt man in the arena quote. Are you familiar with that? Essentially, it's like at the end, it's like if you don't try, you won't win or lose. Right, if you try you may lose, but at least you'll have tried and you can. You know it's like. So I don't want to get to the end of, you know, my life and go. I wish I had done Totally.

Carrie Fabris: 48:11

I wish.

Michael Hartmann: 48:11

I had not, and so, like I think there's something to be said for like, look, it's a hard thing to do, Do the hard thing.

Carrie Fabris: 48:18

Well, and here's the thing. So can I touch on failure for a second Speaking?

Michael Hartmann: 48:23

of doing hard things. Let's do that. Yeah. Well, I think it'll be good because I think this is a. It's been a tough couple of years for people in this space right, with lots of layoffs and people on job loss and try to figure out what to do. So, yes, absolutely. I wouldn't even call that failure, but just the difficult situation, right. Yeah, so, so so many people say they have a fear of failure.

Carrie Fabris: 48:50

In my experience personally and as a coach for for the last decade, it's not that, it's something deeper. When we immediately go to, oh, I have a fear of X, that's going to be surface level. There is some other root cause that's a little deeper than that. But with failure we have to fail. Failure is simply learning. It is simply learning. It is here to teach us an incredible lesson that we're supposed to get from that failure.

Carrie Fabris: 49:24

And if we have a fear of failure and we just hang our hat on that, we're essentially saying we're afraid to grow, we're afraid to grow, we're afraid to learn. And again, don't mean not to sound harsh, it's just that that's just how that lands and this is where the magic happens. Speaking of magic, the magic happens outside of our comfort zone. We've probably all seen that visual right, like here's a little circle, the arrow points over here and like this is where all the magic happens and it's out of our comfort zone. And so when we fail, if we look at failure as a teacher, we look at fear as a teacher as well. Fear gets louder the longer we avoid doing something.

Michael Hartmann: 50:06

Yes.

Carrie Fabris: 50:07

And it gets louder because it's trying to get our attention. It's like I'm actually not going to go away. I'm going to get more annoying until you do this thing. And the minute you do that thing, fear goes away.

Michael Hartmann: 50:19

Well, I think we often tell ourselves a story about how awful that is going to be, totally Sometimes it is but in most cases in my experience, it's never near as bad as you think it's going to be.

Carrie Fabris: 50:29

A lot of times, most times when you leap, the net will appear Some net, whatever the net is meant to be for you. But a net is going to appear and this is where resilience is really important. I'm just helping us pick ourselves back up trust that we're exactly where we're supposed to be. We're going to be okay. Sometimes we're going to be freaking awesome. Sometimes we're going to be we're just going to have to sit in the suck for a minute. But there is a lesson that all of us can learn in all of those facets of life, and so fear of failure. I have fun with people who tell me that I'm like okay, I come here, let me, let me help you, let me help you understand that failure is is actually doing something for you, not against you. So I just wanted to share that, yeah.

Michael Hartmann: 51:20

No, I think it's good. I mean, I think, whether it's Man's Search for Meaning or A Brave New World, right, this idea they've kind of diametrically opposed, actually, I guess and like, but the idea like, oh, we would all be happier if we didn't have challenges or failures in our lives is really false. Like we just it would. It's not human nature.

Carrie Fabris: 51:41

It'd be bored out of mind. It'd be bored, and boredom is worse than failure?

Michael Hartmann: 51:45

Yeah, I mean, I think it would be, and so I think, um, there's like a lesson learned from this is just like, yeah, that resilience, uh, realizing that whatever your stuff you're dealing with, you can overcome, it is something that's a good lesson to learn.

Carrie Fabris: 52:01

It doesn't mean it's going to be easy.

Michael Hartmann: 52:03

It doesn't mean it's not going to come with more punches to the face.

Carrie Fabris: 52:05

Again, pain is the path to joy with almost everything, and so it's the courage to go through the pain. Don't push it off, because it's just going to get louder Again. We push off stuff that comes in across our path. It gets louder and heavier, yeah.

Carrie Fabris: 52:19

If we find the courage, find the support system. Not coping right, that's different. Finding support system to go through whatever that pain is, you will get, all of us will get to the other side and get to the joy, and then we'll look back at all the things we learned along the way.

Michael Hartmann: 52:38

Yes, yes. Well, you can't have one without the other. So that's right. That's right. It feels like it's a great place to stop Carrie. So much fun talking about this. I love this stuff and I think this is a great will be really helpful for everybody who's listening and watching this. So if folks want to learn more about you or what you're talking about and that kind of stuff, what's the best way for them to do that?

Carrie Fabris: 53:01

Yeah, so they can go to my website, kerryfabricecom. I've got everything on there that I do. I am in the process of starting to record a bunch of little video snippets, a video series that I'm going to post on LinkedIn. It's all around ROE and setting it up with how do you find your ROE with insert topic. So I'm going to just start doing this and having fun so you can connect with me on LinkedIn. If you connect with me on LinkedIn, please tell me that you heard me here. So I'm like who is this person? Cause I don't accept all um, all invitations, cause I'm like I don't know who this person is. But if you tell me you know you heard me on the podcast, then I certainly will want to invite you into my community and let you look around on my little videos. But thank you for having me. I definitely had an amazing ROE personally.

Michael Hartmann: 53:49

Oh good, so did I, so did I. So it was really fun Even on this cloudy gray day, here in Dallas Exactly.

Carrie Fabris: 53:56

It's where, just to bring everything up, despite the clouds and the 26 degree weather that's on its way here again.

Michael Hartmann: 54:01

Yes, I'm looking forward to covering plants here in a few hours.

Carrie Fabris: 54:06

I gave up.

Michael Hartmann: 54:07

I just gave up. Yeah Well, carrie. Again, thank you so much. Thank you Thanks to all of our listeners out there for continuing to support us, as always. If you have ideas for guests or topics or want to be a guest, reach out to Naomi, mike or me and we'll be happy to talk to you about it. Till next time, bye, everybody.