Michael Hartmann: 0:25

Hello everyone, Welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by MarketingOpscom, powered by all the MoPros out there. I'm your host, Michael Hartman, flying solo today, so we'll get Naomi or Mike back soon, I'm sure. Joining me today to talk about how demand generation and marketing slash revenue ops teams can work together better is Janelle Amos. Janelle is founder and chief strategist of Elevate Growth, her marketing and demand gen agency. Prior to founding Elevate Growth, Janelle held several leadership positions in demand generation, revenue marketing, digital marketing and general marketing. In addition, she is an advisor, podcast host and speaker. So, Janelle, thanks for joining me today.

Janelle Amos: 1:03

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to dive in.

Michael Hartmann: 1:05

Yeah, this is going to be fun and so we could tell like we are covering both Dallas and the Fort Worth areas, right, or sort of.

Janelle Amos: 1:13

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann: 1:14

Yeah, so we've got Texas. Texas is raining today. Texas represent. That's right. All right, as long as you're not a you're not a TCU person, are you?

Janelle Amos: 1:25

Well, my best friend is, so I kind of have to be, but a TCU person are you Well, my best friend is, so I kind of have to be. But personally, Okay, Because I'm an SMU guy and that's like it's hard for me to deal.

Michael Hartmann: 1:37

We got no beef, that's right, all right. So you've spent most of your career in demand generation and you've worked with multiple marketing operations teams, and I think that's really why we want to talk today. But so let's just dive right into it. Like what, from your perspective, distinguishes the best Mops teams that you've worked with and maybe the other side right, what are the? You know, what are some of the things that you think you've learned over the years that demand generation folks could learn about how to work best with marketing ops and more tech teams?

Janelle Amos: 2:11

Yeah, I'll take your first question first, in terms of how I found the best marketing operations teams and from my experience it's been those that can somehow connect the day-to-day tactics to the business goal. And so, instead of just keeping the tunnel vision and kind of the blinders on and powering through because there's so much work to be done on an operation side of things, the list is never empty, but it's always important to communicate and advocate how it impacts what everybody else is doing in the organization, because it does. In my opinion, it's the backbone of how companies operate, either successfully or detrimentally, and not a whole lot of positions fully comprehend that implication. And so the best marketing operation folks who can communicate that, in my opinion, really set them apart from the rest.

Michael Hartmann: 3:13

Gotcha. So when you say communicating that, are you talking about what they're doing, how they're supporting the teams? Is it just that they show understanding of the way the business works?

Janelle Amos: 3:27

It's understanding of how the business works and the implications for it. So a great example would be data. If you have bad data, the company cannot operate. The implications are marketing can't send emails. The implications are you can't segment lists. The implications are your reporting is going to be crap. The implications are when the executive team has the conversations with the board and they're asking great, what levers are you going to be investing in for the next quarter? If you're reliant on data and your data's off and you go back that next quarter and you come back and you say, just kidding, our data was wrong, we wasted an entire quarter. The implications are big and operations teams need to communicate that and advocate for the work and say I need throwing this number out there $30,000, $60,000 for support to clean up our data, here's why and connect it to who they're communicating the business case with.

Michael Hartmann: 4:22

Right. Yeah, it's interesting because I think data is one of those ones especially let's set aside like reporting, analytics, like almost backward looking stuff, but like just in the day to day, like I always think about this, like the value of data is. Well, the danger of not having good data is just a simple thing, like, hey, we want to target our best customers, right. However, you want to define that If you can't do that easily, because the data is a mess and upstream processes or whatever that's like, it makes it really hard to be effective at doing anything and it slows everything down and then, over time, if you don't address it right, degrades trust in the data, degrades trust in the team, and that's not where you want to be right.

Janelle Amos: 5:06

That's a costly implication. Turnover, replacement, retention of employees I mean those you know those add up.

Michael Hartmann: 5:14

Absolutely, absolutely. So if you were, if you were talking to other demand gen professionals, like how would because I do think, if I suspected, like if I was imagining what some of our listeners might be imagining right, Like oh, yeah, yeah, I get it, it's all on us to go figure out understand the business. They don't understand what we do either. How would you help demand gen folks who maybe actually don't understand how their mops teams can be leveraged to do that better?

Janelle Amos: 5:45

Ask.

Michael Hartmann: 5:46

That's the number one thing that I've always one tried to be in my role and to try to encourage others to be is curious yeah, I love that, I agree, like I'm a big fan of that too, like I, and I think it hit me a couple of different ways in my career. One was like a weird one, which was when I was early in my career in marketing and I was at a big company and they were doing there. I happened to come in a week where they were doing one of these customer panels where there's a someone who's facilitating a conversation with a bunch of customers or potential customers, and then we were back behind the I can't remember, is it one way glass, twoway mirror, whatever and I was like I was like wanting to scream. I'm like, what are these people doing? And it made me realize like, oh, I need to actually be more curious and listen, so from customers. That's one, and then the other is working with different people, both being curious.

Michael Hartmann: 6:44

But one of the things I got benefit from and it was sort of forced at one company different company in this case where everyone was required, and I was like they got rid of this too and I was like why had to go spend like half, half a day every like twice a year with someone in another department? It didn't even have to be one you worked with normally, so, like in this case, big event company. So, like the people who actually did production on our events, right, I spent time and it was really really helpful to understand how the rest of the company worked and not make assumptions, and I always enjoyed it when people were like sit in shadow with me too. Have you ever done anything like that?

Michael Hartmann: 7:26

Yeah, Beyond just asking questions.

Janelle Amos: 7:28

Yeah, and I actually recommend it too. Did you ever? Have you ever done anything like that Beyond just asking questions? Yeah, and I actually recommend it too. You know, just if you're a new hire at a company, go and sit with other people on your team, cross departments, see if you can shadow some of the executives, depending on your role, and just learn, be a sponge, and then the insights that you can take from those will be able to mold how you can be more successful. You'll get insights like how to communicate with individuals, what it actually takes to make something come to life, how long it takes in a process or what specific bottlenecks there are, and maybe you could find some quick wins. Maybe you could find some empathy for how long it takes some teams. A lot of learnings can come from it, but you've got to take the first initiative and just be curious.

Michael Hartmann: 8:14

Heavy. Do you recommend? Would you recommend to our listeners who are marketing folks to try to do that Not only do that with people internally, but also maybe be able to sit in on like customer calls or prospect calls?

Janelle Amos: 8:25

I will say, if you ever get a chance to, yes. A lot of companies that I have found they like to gatekeep who are on those calls. Sure, so it might not always be possible, but if the opportunity is there, certainly there's so much you can learn from their front lines. If not, then ask if the call can be recorded, see if you can get the cliff notes from ChatGPT and just learn. I think a lot of insights can come from just the recording. Of course it's not going to be the best if you're not in the room asking questions, like reading the emotions and behind it, but if you can take one step forward, then certainly you've got to learn on all different departments and avenues and especially your customers.

Michael Hartmann: 9:10

Yeah, I mean the way I think about that one in particular, why, I asked, is it kind of goes back to that example of being behind the two-way glass or two-way mirror, right? Or was it like? Part of what was frustrating to me is I felt like they weren't using the right language. But then I realized in the middle of it, like actually we're not using the right language because if we're not matching what they're saying or doing, how they think about these, and that's actually on us, not on them. So, and then that made me better. At the time I was doing a lot of like search marketing stuff too. So when I was working with our product marketing teams um, I was, I was better consultatively with them on like how to, how to improve the results of what we were doing, right, so having that customer language understanding, so I can imagine if you're doing a full campaign, right, content's going to be important. Yeah, and I always say you know, just because I'm a marketer and we're doing a full campaign right.

Janelle Amos: 10:09

Content's going to be important, yeah, and I always say, you know, just because I'm a marketer and we're talking to other marketers, you know, marketing one-on-one is tailor your message to your audience, and that's the same thing when it comes to advocating or communicating internally as well as who are you talking to, what are they gold on, and how can we work together to be successful?

Michael Hartmann: 10:27

What are they gold on and how can we work together to be successful? So when you, like you said, like one of the things to do is be like, maybe be the one that asks the first to try to connect the dots with these other teams and maybe sit with them, like, how do you have any advice? Like there's going to be some people who are totally comfortable with that right no problem asking and others who maybe will feel like, oh, I don't want to bother these people or I'm uncomfortable with that. Like how, any suggestions for how to just approach that kind of conversation?

Janelle Amos: 11:01

Yeah, I think in any role to really be fulfilled you have to have one person who's willing to be your advocate.

Janelle Amos: 11:07

So if you don't feel comfortable going to another department or even somebody else who might be more senior to you, I would find your advocate and help them be your champion.

Janelle Amos: 11:18

So a great example would be if both demand gen and marketing operations report to the CMO, then if you're intimidated to talk directly to the operations person but you're best friends with the CMO and you guys have a great working relationship, I would advocate to the CMO and ask I want to be curious, I want to learn more about how to partner better with the operations team. Could you help facilitate more open conversations between maybe the entire team, between me and the operations person? This is what I'm hoping to get out of it. Let me know how I can best support. And then you get into the room right and then afterwards you can do a debrief with the cmo and you can ask what did I do well, what did I do bad, where can I improve? And you can take those key learnings as well as your. You know, know, I say first party feedback from meeting directly with the operations person and learn for the next time.

Michael Hartmann: 12:15

So in that case, you're actually asking the advocate not only to help broker the discussion, but actually be in the room virtual room, whatever as a part of that, to help facilitate that communication too. Is that what you're saying?

Janelle Amos: 12:28

Maybe it would depend on the situation, right? So if you would feel most comfortable in having that person in the room, then I don't see any harm, as long as they understand that their role is to facilitate. If you just need the introduction to get into the same room, then you can say cool, I got it from here, Thanks.

Michael Hartmann: 12:44

It just all depends on the comfort level, you know seniority level of the individual and kind of what support they would need in that aspect. I think that's, that's a good idea. I it's not somewhat obvious now that I think about it, but I hadn't actually thought of that as a as a tactic and probably because I'm comfortable. I'd be comfortable going and asking directly, right.

Janelle Amos: 13:03

So it's like um that's a good question, Cause not everybody is comfortable, you know so yeah.

Michael Hartmann: 13:11

So, um, let's say that you get that meeting scheduled like, like, how, how have you seen it work well or not work well, when you like? Let's assume that's like the beginning of some sort of connection, hopefully. Um, like, how would you like, how would you approach or how have you approached structuring those, keeping them going?

Janelle Amos: 13:36

Yeah, great question. I would recommend those to be recurring, so whether, depending on your company culture, weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, but you need to have something on the calendar going forward. The objective initially will be to understand let's understand what your goal is, let's understand what keeps you up at night, let's understand how I can best help. And then thereafter we can start working on mutually crafting strategies and plans together to achieve what we both want from outcomes. And then thereafter, on our recurring meetings, we talk about how we're pacing towards those, anything else that we're facing externally, any other bottlenecks now that we've implemented some of those. But on both parties have to remain curious and open and sometimes things don't always go the right way. The two of them could have a hypothesis put it in market and it flop. That doesn't mean that you're both bad, that's marketing right. So in that next call, it's not you did this wrong, you did that wrong. You know dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. It's. Listen, this flop to. What are we going to do better next time? And then you objectively have that conversation.

Michael Hartmann: 14:42

Yeah, it's like looking for lessons learned. So, um, what I've had similar things to that and one of the things that I've struggled with, I think, over, especially over time the longer it goes is just kind of keeping track of all the different things we've talked about and having like tracking of that, making sure we're doing it. So, um, I know there's probably a lot of people would sort of gravitate right to some sort of project management system for that. I tend to like spreadsheets just easier for tracking that kind of stuff. Do you, do you have a preference for like how you track those things?

Janelle Amos: 15:21

I know it's pretty tactical, but I'm gonna apologize because I think somebody just knocked on my door and if you guys can hear my dog in the background, is it too noisy?

Michael Hartmann: 16:36

It's real life.

Janelle Amos: 16:38

It's real life. Okay, here we are. We're authentic In terms of how to best track that, I would say. Do whatever the culture of the company is, if it is acceptable in a spreadsheet, if it's in a dashboard okay.

Michael Hartmann: 16:58

So one of the things challenges I have with, uh, these ongoing conversations like that is just tracking what we've talked about action items, all that kind of stuff and I tend to use spreadsheets and a lot of people probably would um think about using a project management system. To me it seems like a little overkill, but just very tactical question. But like, do you have a preference for how you do that or what do you? What do you like to do? You have a preference for how you do that, or what do you? What do you?

Janelle Amos: 17:21

like to do. Yeah, normally a working Google doc. You know that you can set the meeting agenda, you can scribble on some notes and then every week it's one live working doc that we can keep track of conversations, you know next steps, et cetera.

Michael Hartmann: 17:37

Yeah, like I mean, I like having a standard agenda too, so I just it's, it's always good Um. One of the things when you and I talked before that you mentioned that I really want you mentioned um. In these relationships, sometimes it's good to. I think the word you use was hero, like be a hero for the other person or the team in some ways. Can you go a little deeper on what you meant by that?

Janelle Amos: 18:04

Well, us, as humans, we're very defensive, and when somebody is I don't know what you're talking about.

Janelle Amos: 18:12

When somebody starts poking a little bit in a way, I don't know where, you're insecure, or you know, you have some you know past drama, things start to, you know, your hair start to spike up a little bit more than just an average hey, how are you doing Coffee talk?

Janelle Amos: 18:28

And so what I would recommend others is, if you're put in a position to have an uncomfortable or a hard conversation, would be to frame yourself in a way to be the hero and not necessarily or, excuse me like even make them the hero and have you be the sidekick, because you're not trying to take the credit, you're not trying to one-up, you're not trying to show that you're better than them. At least I would hope not, but at the end of the day, we both have to get over this hurdle together. So let's objectively communicate the elephant in the room, you know. Let's eliminate all the feelsies of I feel like, or you know, you know all the, all the sensory words and really just get back to the facts of. You know, I've observed X, y and Z has happened. I would like to have X, y and Z be a result.

Michael Hartmann: 19:19

You know how can we have a conversation to mutually get us there? Yeah, I probably shared this before on other episodes, but I'm a big fan of there's two books, similar titles, one's called Crucial Conversations, one's called Crucial Confrontations, and they kind of provide frameworks for those kinds of difficult conversations that you were mentioning. I mean, I know that one of the things I try to do if I'm dealing with someone where, like maybe that I've reached out, started this meeting, it's still like a resistance kind of thing, like they're not totally bought into it is it's almost like a negotiation ploy, like would you be willing to try this right, like get them to say yes to one thing, even if it's a small step right where they've otherwise been resistant? Have you ever like, have you ever run into that where you've had, like really someone who's a challenge to like to get them to to work together on something, and have you worked through it like that?

Janelle Amos: 20:18

yes and no. No, yes, certainly faced individuals who you know, when you ask an open question such as would you be willing to do this? No, like entirely unworkable. But in that situation this goes back to having an advocate, you know, or having been in a role where you can then say, you know, disagree and commit, like we've got to do something. We can't sit here and iterate forever, so let's disagree and commit. If we're not on the same page and that keeps the go-to-market motion moving, it doesn't keep in. You know, they said, we said, who said it's just all right, cool. I disagree, like I think we should go a different way. But you know we're both here to get a job done. Disagree and commit.

Michael Hartmann: 21:07

Yeah, I'm a big fan of. That's not the phrase I've used in the past. I I always use the word consensus, right, and usually applies more in a maybe a larger group than just a one-on-one kind of thing. But I always it has the same sentiment. Right, everyone has their stay. We make a decision and we all go support it. Right, like that's, that's our job. Which then leads to downstream, which is if it works, or like if it doesn't work. Right, if you were the one who said I was advocating for alternative X and we went with Y and it didn't work, like it's all your fault, like you don't get to go blame people, right, your job is to then go figure out well, what should we do next and learn from it. So there's a little bit of grace involved with that. So when you've done that, yeah, disagree and commit model model. How has that played out?

Janelle Amos: 22:04

Good, honestly, because it's gotten us in a room where we could communicate trust and if we got to the point of disagreeing but committing, that's all we needed. And then the outcome is let's see if it works. And then, if it does or if it doesn't, right and going into. If it does, and it's okay, cool, what idea would you like to try next? If I agree or disagree, let's commit, you know. Then if it doesn't work, then it's all right, now we learned. What would you like to try next? So it's kind of a twofold either way and building rapport. And if you do that enough times, then you have that rapport, peer-to-peer to where we can have that open discussion. Going forward, we'll regroup again, disagree and come in and we'll see. We'll let the data speak for itself.

Michael Hartmann: 22:56

Yeah, I think for those of our listeners who have not tried something like this, where it feels like they're always butting heads right, I think if you can try something like this disagree and commit it will become way more natural. Right, because it's not easy at first, especially if you're the kind of person who is uncomfortable with conflict, right? So cause, sometimes that's what it feels like. Cause, you're right, people do get defensive and that's we're human. That's probably the default state.

Janelle Amos: 23:27

Yeah, I will say though um, I'm not quite sure what level your audience is right on, Um, but I feel like having that mentality is almost essential to break into senior leadership, executive level. I mean, I've been in rooms where executives are yelling at each other and at the end of the day they walk out and they're handshaking. I'm like it's just, it's part of the gig, it's not personal. Is it uncomfortable in the moment? Sure, maybe, but it's business. And I'm not saying it's business or it's okay to just yell at other people. It's not.

Janelle Amos: 24:00

But the reality is a true executive team is not going to agree 100% of the time, and the whole point is to build a team that has diverse opinions and experiences and welcome a conversation on how we could be different and challenge the status quo. That's a team you want to work for, and so I think at some point you know to your listeners that are listening to this is you have to, at some point, be okay with being in a room like that if you want to be in the next level. That's just part of the job. It doesn't mean that you have to be unethical. It doesn't mean that you have to be a terrible human being. That doesn't mean you know this and that it just means that it's part of the job, it's not personal, and it's an opportunity for you to share your perspective on navigating a business.

Michael Hartmann: 24:49

Yeah, I mean, it's 100% agree. I coach people and one of the things I like coaching kind of is people who are like coach kind of is people who are like soon to be or in one of their early roles as a people leader. Because that's one of the lessons I always tell people like you've got to get comfortable with uncomfortable conversations, right, let's be the. The one they think about is with the people who work for them or report to them. But it goes all directions. Right, it was with your boss, with your peers, you know, with your peers, boss. Like you've got to get comfortable with that, otherwise you're going to get like it's going to be really it's going to be a terrible experience but you're going to get plowed over from those who don't have that level, right, right and I'm with you like you brought it up a couple of times, so I just want like so I am totally fine with passionately fighting for your position, as long as it doesn't get personal.

Michael Hartmann: 25:44

If it gets personal, that's crossed the line, right? If it's your idea, like I don't agree with your idea, it doesn't make any sense to me. Okay, if you go to the next step and go like you're an idiot, no, no, you're pushing, like that's not. That's when my defense mechanism I know I would go up, like I would be like okay, now it's on.

Janelle Amos: 26:08

Yeah, I think if you're in a room where you have to defend your experience or your role, then I would say you're in the wrong room, because I've been fortunate to have been in rooms where the executive team is like I have no clue what you're talking about, janelle, or no. I disagree entirely with that. But I trust you, so prove me wrong and I'm like bet, and then you go and you build that rapport. But there's got to be a level of trust. There has to be a level of mutually wanting to make it work, and if that's not there, then I would say you're probably in the wrong room.

Michael Hartmann: 26:43

yeah, no, I I think you're right. Like, to me, that trust piece is really, really important. And I see, um, I see actually see a lot of ops teams put in, marketing teams in general, like put on all these gates for like getting things done Right, particularly like review and approval processes. That I to me are often. When I see that, I often go like there's a trust issue at this organization, right, it's not about like, do we trust people do good work and make you know and then own the outcomes? If you don't, then that's when you start seeing these things like you know, four levels of review and approval, multiple iterations of the same thing with like small tweaks, it's like, no, that's not the problem yeah, that's a great perspective yeah, um.

Michael Hartmann: 27:35

So you know, we've talked a little bit about like this process of building kind of a good working relationship and rapport and all that with a peer and maybe the peers team and your team. Does you think it matters that much if it's let's just keep it to ops and demand generate? Do you think it matters if it's demand gen, who starts it or up starts it? Does it like? Do you think it's worked better one way or the other?

Janelle Amos: 28:02

I don't think it matters from a role standpoint. I will say whichever one is the newest to the org should be the one that facilitates it. So the ops has been there for six months and the demand gen person is brand new. My expectation would be the demand gen person to facilitate that, because you're stepping in curious, you're stepping in trying to understand the lay of the land. You're stepping in trying to understand where the bodies are buried. You're stepping in trying to understand strategy. Right, there's a lot that you should be learning, and if connecting with people who are already in the day-to-day is not a part of that, my expectation is that that demand gen person probably won't be successful. Same thing if the tables were flipped right.

Michael Hartmann: 28:44

Yeah.

Janelle Amos: 28:44

Demand-gen person was there. The operations come in. They should be asking what's worked, what's not worked, where the body's buried, what problems are you having? Is it data? Is it processes? Is it technology? What's important for you in the next 30, 60? All those things so role-based, not so much Whoever's newer to the org.

Michael Hartmann: 29:11

That's an interesting one, because I think I almost have the opposite reaction to that. I would think the person who's been there longer should take a little more responsibility for that. I see where you're coming from and maybe it's the nature of I've. Could be because I've worked a little more for, like mid to large size companies more than small companies and, um, I mean my limited experience with small companies.

Michael Hartmann: 29:36

Yes, I think I would agree. Right, the new person is like should be jumping in and building those relationships and a larger company. The reason I think of that is I think about when I've hired people at large companies, like I spend, like I hire people expecting to be able to do the the details of the job, but I don't expect them to know necessarily the organization and I spend a lot of time just like teaching them that and like then it's like part of my job is like facilitating those connections for those people, and I think of like, think of it the same way, like the person who's you know understands the organization better is the one who should take that first step well, it makes sense, it totally makes sense.

Janelle Amos: 30:14

And you know here, disagree to commit right? Um, I don't necessarily agree with that. And here's why, if we flip it from an org standpoint and say you know a CMO is hiring a demand gen person, my expectation is that the CMO would then be like okay, here's you know who you should be doing and connecting and here's your onboarding and holding your hand and those type of things. But when it comes down to, you're the senior leader. If I were a CMO stepping into a company and I don't facilitate conversations with the team that I'm inheriting or much like the rest of the executive team, people are going to be like you know what are they doing. So it just comes down, in my opinion, is how you want to be perceived. Are you perceived as a strategic leader or are you perceived as a doer?

Janelle Amos: 31:03

If you want to be perceived and making an impact at the company, I think it's mission critical to be the one facilitating those conversations and showcasing that you're capable. If not, then you're easily going to be bucketed, which, in my opinion, you don't want to be into. Their junior right. We have to handhold their two green and if you're not green or junior, then you know you better act like it. Show them who's boss, yeah.

Michael Hartmann: 31:30

Okay, yeah, no, I think, like, even if you're not and you don't like, this is this is the one of those uncomfortable truths, right? I think perception is reality, right? So if you're not doing things to change that perception, then you, the perception is going to be how you're treated too. That's kind of what you're saying, right?

Janelle Amos: 31:48

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann: 31:50

Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, fair enough, like, um, yeah, yeah, I don't even know that there's a right answer. I think maybe these are not even two sides of the same coin, right? I think both can be true, right, sure, yes, yeah, and I think maybe that's where it is. So let's say that kind of connection doesn't happen, right? What do you think the outcome is going to be if those, if those, some like one, one person, one team or another doesn't like start that, that interaction?

Janelle Amos: 32:26

Well, I think there's several implications. Number one is you will be operating in silo, which is detrimental to a go-to-market. Go-to-market has to have multiple cross departments working in unison, and if one department can't even do that, how are you going to roll that out across multiple? Two is the sooner that you can break down the initial barrier between human to human and really get on somebody's I don't want to say good side, but like good working side, you know where you want to build a team and do good work and you get excited about things. The longer that it takes for you to get there, the longer that things start to get in motion, it's going to be a lot of friction or it's going to be delayed timelines, delayed processes, and it's just going to constantly feel hard or take longer than it needs to, and so the implication, in my opinion, is detrimental to the business.

Michael Hartmann: 33:18

Sure, yeah, in my opinion is detrimental to the business. Sure, that's yeah. No, the idea like there's going to be again goes back to your point about like people get defensive, right, it's going to, it's going to lead to that friction and frustration and finger pointing, and then that's naturally you can get the reaction and then, yeah, I can see nothing gets done, right but I don't feel like we should approach it in a lens of saying that the other is wrong.

Janelle Amos: 33:42

I mean, we're talking about two totally different roles you know there shouldn't be. You know my way, or the highway it's, at the end of the day, demand, gen and ops have to work together in unison lockstep. How we get there? That's the conversation to be had.

Michael Hartmann: 34:04

I could not. Yeah, I mean I think there's. I didn't mean to imply that that's not the case. Right, that shouldn't be the goal. I'm just saying like I think maybe it's. It could be one or either side could be resistant to the whole idea, and that's when, like then it's going to devolve and that's not like that. Yeah, you're right, it's like then it's detrimental to the business.

Janelle Amos: 34:27

Yeah, and you know I'm going to call you out. It's not about you getting defensive, it wasn't anything you said. You know, it's just the conversation for the podcast and interpretation for the audience and listeners.

Michael Hartmann: 34:45

It could go multiple different ways. Right, it's just my opinion, your opinion, yeah, I well, I think I think you're you're hitting on something I've said too, though, which is like there's not always, I think, people get caught up in using words like the right way or um, it's correct, like I, I think I think, especially in the lens of marketing, I mean, so much is to some degree. Some of it is luck, some of it is you know, you know you're like you need to know your audience, in this case really well to to make the mark. But it's like, it's still like I go back to my search marketing days, right, the, I can probably go back if I really wanted to go. Like I go back to my search marketing days right, the, I can probably go back if I really wanted to go. Like I know there, I know there are cases where I thought, um, like we were going back and forth debating about one word on a search ad, for example, right, and they basically had the same meaning, and like, well, duh, let's just do a test, right, let's see what happens.

Michael Hartmann: 35:36

And I think I my the one I thought would perform better was right half the time, and half the time it wasn't right and there's. No, there was no pattern to it really, other than it just happened that way, and I think that was again like an eye-opening thing, like when you go like like this is I don't want to discount how important our work is and like you should care about your work and be invested in it, but at the end of the day, most of the people who are going to be listening to this, their job is not going to affect someone's life. I have a friend who, literally, is a neurosurgeon. His job it's another level and I think it's easy to lose that perspective. So this idea like this is the right way to do it. It's another level and I think it's easy to lose that perspective about. So this idea like this is the right way to do it.

Janelle Amos: 36:27

Well, maybe, maybe, there's lots of different right ways. Yeah, and I think the best thing for me and I'll say this time and time again was turning into a consultant, because essentially you're able to have that conversation objectively and backtrack to where you make it somebody else's idea. So, for example, we're talking about your search ad and we want to say, cool, we want to have the best performing search ad that there is. What are all the different avenues that we could get there? Okay, cool, you don't know. Let me help you map it out. We could do this, this, this, this, this. We could have this, we're that, we're this, this, we could have this word, that word, this word, that word, da, da, da.

Janelle Amos: 37:04

And I lean to you and I say which one do you want to do? And you say you know, I don't know, um, a, we'll do a and b for easy. You say a and I'm like well, you know, we could also consider b, we can consider c. Is there a reason why you're not considering the other ones? And I would hear you out and I was was like you know, we could also do an AB test and we could better understand, just objectively, you know, cause it's always good to have different creatives in market. And you know it's our first time running a campaign to the audience. We'll let the data tell us. Your idea is let's do an AB test. Awesome Thumbs up. Let's move forward. And it's not who said they said ego, ego. You know defensiveness, whatever it's, we want to get the best performing ad. The best way to do that is statistically.

Michael Hartmann: 37:52

you know companies who run A B tests for the first initial da da, da da da, you know. See results X, y and Z faster. Yeah, I truly believe that's the best way. I love it. Let people believe the idea was there. Yeah, these are all like. So I go back to Brandy.

Michael Hartmann: 38:04

Sanders was one of our first guests and many of our listeners may know who she is, but she said something that still sticks with me now, going well past four years, like five years later, which is she's saying in the context of for ops people but I think it's true, probably of anybody in corporate world is that you know we should be, you should learn to play chess and learn human psychology. Right Cause, right. And that human psychology part is what you're talking about. Right Like how to influence people, and it probably sounds to people like people. There's going to be people who have this adverse reaction to that idea, like it's. It's slimy or dirty, but it's not like. And it can be like, but it doesn't have to be right, it's like if it's, if you, if your goal is to improve that relationship and have outcomes that are good for everybody, then it's just a tool that you're using, as opposed to some sort of sleight of hand.

Janelle Amos: 39:08

Well, I think it's all about intention. You know, there's good humans, there's bad humans, and, at the end of the day, whatever somebody's intention is is what I'm going to hold true to them. And so if your intention is to truly craft the best search engine ad that there is, then let's collectively work together to get there. My intention isn't to make you seem like you don't know what you're talking about, to make you seem like you don't have an experience. My objective and my intention here is to get us to the end goal, and I think, at the end of the day, that's all we can hold humans accountable for. Um and on that.

Michael Hartmann: 39:41

I think the flip that though and this is something I I try to just like don't assume intent as well, right, cause we have all have our own preconceived notions about things, or own of lived experience, and it tends we tend to attribute intent to people. And sometimes and it tends, we tend to attribute intent to people, and sometimes and I'm sure I'm guilty of this too like, sometimes it's because I like maybe it's a day where I'm really tired, and so they said something that normally wouldn't have triggered me, but it did. So I'm like, oh, they're just trying, and so often we're off base and like the.

Michael Hartmann: 40:22

What I have tried, what I try to do on my better days, is to, if some, especially if something is like it hits me and I'm like bothered, like okay, what is it that's bothering me? And if I have the opportunity in the like and it's safe or whatever, like, I will actually ask something to understand, like, yeah, you said this, this is what it sounded like to me, is that what you meant? And it's it's really like striking to me that that often clears the air before anything. Sometimes the answer is yes, that's what I intended, and then you can deal with it. But if your assumption was wrong. Right, then you can also clear that up.

Janelle Amos: 41:00

Yeah, that's a great approach.

Michael Hartmann: 41:02

So, um, yeah, well, this is has been fascinating, like I would. I think I think, um, if I think about the lessons from our conversation here, is like, hey, like reach out, try to build that relationship and try to do it in the context of everyone, like we're trying to do good for not only us but the business overall. Right, and then, like, going to it with trust is a part of it, like I want to trust you until you I mean people can lose trust. You can lose trust in people, for sure, but don't go in with that assumption that you're not going to be able to trust somebody Hopefully anything else that I missed major components there but don't go in with that assumption that you're not going to be able to trust somebody hopefully Anything else that I missed Major components there.

Janelle Amos: 41:44

Well, I think it's great. You know, I think, just know that humans are made to be defensive and assess people's intention before you create an actual like persona of them and label them in the back of your brain as bad. Sometimes that means having a hard conversation, and that is hard. I'm not going to sugarcoat that. But the outcome of those normally help in the long, long scheme of things.

Michael Hartmann: 42:13

Agreed, agreed. We're kind of up against time here. Any last thoughts before we wrap up.

Janelle Amos: 42:24

You know, if you want to be great at whatever role, whether you're demand, gen or operations I think it should start from within and look at ways to find an advocate. You know plenty of successful people have mentors, and whether that's internal at your organization or external, I would just say never give up and always strive to be 1% better every day 1% better every day.

Michael Hartmann: 42:50

I love it, Love it. Well, this has been fun. Janelle Appreciate it. Thank you so much for doing this. If folks want to learn more about you or keep up with what you're doing with Elevate, what's the best way for them to do that?

Janelle Amos: 43:02

Yeah, I appreciate you having me. This is the pleasure, is all mine. You can follow me on LinkedIn at Janelle Amos. You can follow my podcast, amanda and Made Simple, and if you want to say hi, you can send me a direct message and we'll chat.

Michael Hartmann: 43:15

Awesome. Yeah, we'll have to put our notes in the link to your podcast too, so I know you've had some great guests out there, so I think we'll wrap it up there, janelle. Thank you again. So much fun, and thanks also to our listeners for their ongoing support. If you have ideas for topics or guests or want to be a guest, you can always reach out to Mike Naomi or me through LinkedIn, through the Marketing Ops community, and we'd be glad to talk to you about it. Until next time, bye, everybody.