Speaker 1: 0:24

I'm marketingopscom, powered by all the mod pros out there. I'm your host, michael Hartman, flying well sort of solo is. If you're watching this, if we've got this out on video, you will notice that I am not alone, but I am without my co-hosts. Mike and Naomi are off and weren't able to make it. But today we are talking about community and specifically what it means in the marketing ops world, how it evolves, why it matters more than ever. So joining me for this all women panel I tried to get Leslie to take over on this but she wouldn't go for it are my four guests who bring a different and powerful perspective each.

Speaker 1: 1:00

So, starting with Leslie Greenwood, who's a community strategist advisor and founder of Chief Evangelist Consulting, she helped launch the marketingopscom chapter leader program and knows what it takes to turn participation into belonging. Alicia Khan is the director of client services at Intrasphere and founder of Alpaca Consulting and also the Chicago chapter lead for marketingopscom. She's seen firsthand how consistent local engagement builds professional momentum and deepens expertise. Also joining is Penny Hill, who recently joined the community as a member, while in a career transition, and brings a thoughtful perspective as a seasoned marketing executive, figuring out what's next and why. Community plays a role in that. And finally but not least, is Ellie Carey is a senior demand gen manager at StarTree and chapter lead for Dallas, the marketingappscom community. Manager at StarTree and chapter lead for Dallas, the marketingappscom community. She's been actively involved in the community and brings experience from both sides of the table, both as a learner and as a leader. So, ladies, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Well, thanks for having us, yeah, hey.

Speaker 3: 1:59

Yeah, thank you, excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Yeah, I think this is going to be a lot of fun, so why don't we start here? I did like a tiny little bit about each of you. Maybe we can go round Robin, and do a little more of an intro and talk a little bit about how you first got connected to the marketingopscom community. And I'm going to direct here just since I've got everybody. I'm going to go with my top left, which is Leslie. So, leslie, how about you first?

Speaker 2: 2:26

Yeah, I actually met Mike oh I don't know three or four years ago, not as long as I met you ago, michael Hartman, we've known each other now for five to six years Is that right.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 2: 2:40

And so I met Mike also through that community and then, as I transitioned out of being VP of Member Success at that role, mike and I started talking and when I was able to work with him, we engaged and I think it's been a year and a half now working on community strategy as well as rolling out the global chapter program and I think we're up to 15 to 18 chapters, including two overseas no three, I'm sorry we already we just onboarded Australia and New Zealand, so three international chapters and it's been really exciting to see the growth of the chapter program.

Speaker 1: 3:15

It's incredible, that's crazy. Alicia, how about you next?

Speaker 4: 3:19

Yeah, so I am one of those people who has been lurking in the marketing ops community Slack for literally years and years. At this point I am probably the person who's like they're like you should maybe be more engaged. I get those messages every now and again, but, um, I think in the past year I've also sort of like I've been mark in marketing ops for like 10 years, was in-house mostly decided that I wanted to um start working for myself, hang up my own hat Now I'm working at Industry a bit as well and I wanted to be actually connected to other professionals in my space and being a part of both the like Adobe Marketo community coming up in my career was so influential to who I am, how I learned and all the career opportunities I got that joining this community was like an absolute no brainer, because I've I've already seen the impact that like one community has had on my career and I'm so excited, especially in Chicago, to create those opportunities, um for other marketing ops folks.

Speaker 1: 4:22

Awesome, ellie, you're next on my screen.

Speaker 5: 4:26

Ellie, you're next on my screen, yeah. So I think kind of a similar story to you, alicia, where I was lurking in a marketing ops group, but platform-based, and I really saw a lot of value. And then in recent years I ended up going agency side where I became platform agnostic. So we were supporting HubSpot, marketo, a little bit of Pardot, and so what I really loved about the marketing ops community is it was very platform agnostic but very strategic, where we kind of had this free for all, where we could talk about different things, where it's not you're limited to one platform and that's it. And I just really love the community, I love the vibe, I loved the content and I've been ever since I've been here. So, yeah, it's good to be here.

Speaker 1: 5:16

All right, Penny, bring it home.

Speaker 3: 5:18

Yeah, so you know, like you said, I'm brand new to the marketing ops community and you know I am I actually just recently transitioned out of my corporate role and so you know one thing I'm I'm looking to go out on my own with marketing ops strategy and execution work. And I actually met Ellie just a few months I mean not even quite two months ago at a dinner and that was really cool and she was talking about what she was doing with marketing ops and it was just neat to see how intentional she was with the Dallas Fort Worth community and it just I mean especially going out on my own.

Speaker 1: 5:54

I just wanted to be a part of it. Yes, awesome. So let's maybe let's start with Leslie. So Leslie is the was the instigator for this. She had a recent post like trying to get, I think, more women tied to your Wednesday women initiative onto podcasts, podcasts. So I was super like it just worked out really well for us to be able to bring you together. But what, um? You talked a little bit about the local chapter program, um, and where it's grown to, which I didn't even realize it was that big. So like, what were some, what was the genesis of that or catalyst of that program? And like, or maybe were there things you were seeing, hearing, whatever that made you think that that was needed? Uh, in the for the community.

Speaker 2: 6:33

I mean, I think in general we're all craving more in person. Um online can take you so far, but when you meet someone in person, I mean literally, I'll just have to plug.

Speaker 2: 6:42

It was at a Wednesday, women dinner that Ellie and Penny met Um, and I'm like, oh see, look, I was doing a good job for marketing ops during my event, helping you grow, and I just, you know, I know it, I know it, I feel it, I've seen it, you know, both before and after COVID. I think it's even getting larger in the world of AI the more bots we can talk to in a day, the more real humans we need to talk to to offset the bots. And I just think that this is going to the in-person part is going to take off even more. And there is something about you know we may I mean, I've been to LA's marketing ops events.

Speaker 2: 7:24

I don't know a thing about marketing ops. I know about community. That's what I'm here for but you know there's a bond and you know a level of I don't know interaction and value that you can get by being in person, and that glue in this case could be that you know you love Marketo and you love Pardot and I know nothing, but we all live in Dallas, love Pardot and I know nothing, but we all live in Dallas, and so that's our connector piece and we can connect on multiple levels, and so that having that local presence is super important, I think, as part of any community. So I usually try to recommend that for sure.

Speaker 4: 8:03

And I think, just to jump in here and to Leslie's horn, one thing she's because I joined the chapter leader program maybe like about six months ago-ish, and her emphasis has always been on like this doesn't have to be fancy, this doesn't have to be like a very complicated thing. I think there are definitely like other communities and like tech groups that are like it has to be a very proper formal event with slides and everything and like, yes, we did like Chicago. Yeah, chicago had like a little slides event today. But our next one is literally just like we're going to be at a coffee shop. Alicia will be at a coffee shop working. You should come sit with me if you would like to come sit with somebody and work together, and I think that's like that is such a more relaxed and like chiller vibe. Like that is such a more relaxed and like chiller vibe and so like the barrier to entry is so much easier and less like it's like less stressful and like less anxiety inducing for folks.

Speaker 1: 9:47

Well, I think, leslie, like your point is like, I think I've heard variations of something like we are now more connected than ever, but we create, we are not really connected, right? And I think that's what you're tapping into. Is that which is interesting? Because I know, leslie, that you are? You would call yourself an introvert, right?

Speaker 2: 10:05

So A hundred percent. I'm an introvert. I will go and do a do an event. I love a conference because it just hits all the ADD spots in my brain, but then I, you, I will be in pajamas for two straight days and not leave my bed afterwards, but I still want that, you know, that moment of community and I want to have those deep conversations that you can have with someone that you can't have. You know that you just you may not make that relationship over zoom with someone, um, you know less than COVID, and you may not make that relationship over zoom with someone, um, you know less than COVID, and like we did, michael. But I mean, you know, it's just I don't know. That's that's how I feel about it.

Speaker 1: 10:46

Yeah, no, no, I think. But I think even the reason I bring it up is because I suspect there's a lot of people who are out there who think the same things about themselves and, you know, would resist doing something like a meetup. And I think I think there's you know I get it right there's some fear associated with that and everything else, and will I say the wrong thing? But I think if you go out there, especially in these communities, I think people are really welcoming. So I've seen lots of heads nodding for those who are just listening. So, alicia, ellie, let's start here. Alicia, you talked about being in the program or the leader of the local chapter up there in Chicago, and Ellie, here in the Dallas area. What would have been some of the most interesting, surprising things from that experience of like, however long it's been Good, bad or indifferent?

Speaker 5: 11:39

Yeah, ellie, do you want to go first? Yeah, I mean, I think what, um, kind of to leslie's point, people are craving live events, um, and it doesn't have to be this snazzy event where you have all the bells and whistles. I mean our last event, domino's pizza and homemade wine we had like a full house, like. So you know, and so mad I missed that it's okay.

Speaker 5: 12:02

I have a lot. My husband makes homemade wine, so I can hook you up later if you want. But yeah, I guess that's my plug. But yeah, so the people want to go to events and I think it's it's really more about the topic. Like our last topic was AI focused, and so I think that people are excited to events and I think it's really more about the topic. Our last topic was AI focused, and so I think that people are excited to learn, people are excited to show up and you don't have to have this fancy activity, but people are craving community and they're craving conversations real conversations, I think. And what I learned about Dallas is we have a lot of talent here and I, we, you know, you know, you do, but until you get into a room with a lot of different people and see the different perspectives, I just like our last session, I was so blown away about the talent and that was great too. What about you?

Speaker 4: 12:49

I think for me in Chicago, I think we haven't had a really good like the. The Marketo user group has died off a little bit, the HubSpot user group has died off a little bit. That's about user group has died off a little bit. So I think, bringing this in, there's been a lot of energy from especially I don't want to say like the older folks not older folks, that's a terrible way to put it but just like people who've been around, they're like ah, yes, well seasoned. Yes, well seasoned that that's such a better phrase that like they're really excited. That know, we're kind of stepping up to fill in the void, cause Chicago is definitely a pretty big city and and I think at least when people are just like really excited to be able to get out somewhere, like our first event there, it was like a food hall downtown and we literally just grabbed a corner, that was it. We're like here, we have some balloons, we're going to be sitting in this particular corner. Just come find us.

Speaker 2: 13:37

And we have some balloons. We're going to be sitting in this particular corner. Just come find us. And that was it. And that's because they had a birthday party for themselves.

Speaker 4: 13:41

We did, let's just be real. Oh yeah, that's true For Michael. You know what you what? So I was born on May 21st and Deb Monkman, who is our chapter, is my co-chapter lead, was also born on May 21st. Now, I did not know this when I didn't know this. Like, deb and I have worked together. We've met before. We like freelance together a little bit, like we go a little bit ways back, and when I first thought about like oh, I need a chapter lead, I was like, oh, deb, deb would be really good at this. And then we went to schedule. The first event is when we realized we had the same birthday. So we're like, oh, this is like too fun a coincidence to like not do something about it I love it.

Speaker 1: 14:19

Um, that's awesome yeah and it was great.

Speaker 4: 14:21

People like had a great time and and also like I think all stally's point like they just want to do something, anything, they just want a reason to get somewhere, um, and I think. But just like one interesting thought, especially for like chicago as a community and I think this probably applies to other ones is like the, where I think also becomes really important Because Chicago suburbs are pretty broad, downtown's a whole separate beast. And like I think one thing we're experimenting with is like where do we hold things to like make sure we get to where people are, because, like I live technically in the middle of nowhere kind of suburbs. So our next event is like central suburbs. We'll see how that does. Our last event was downtown. That did decently Well. We're figuring out October. So I think that's one thing I definitely want to play with where our community is to make sure that we're not just doing the same place so we see the same people again and again. We're sort of rotating ourselves.

Speaker 1: 15:16

That way everybody has a chance to, you know, hit up an event of ours yeah, I mean I think I don't know that I actually said this direct this directly to leslie when I think she approached me about the chapter local chapters like I think I was probably skeptical, right, that it could work.

Speaker 1: 15:32

So I'm, like I'm actually super happy to have been wrong about that, because I think dallas it sounds like chicago might be the same way, right, people are just spread out. There's not like, it's not like there's one area where all the people are even for work, right especially, and traffic is terrible and all that. So I was like it's um, so what y'all are doing is incredible because, like I, like I am missing out. I missed out on a couple of the Dallas area events and I'm glad I've been to a few and I still want to try to get to as many as I can, but it's an investment and it's a lot of work. So thank you for doing that. Yeah, so okay. So, penny, you are new to the community, I think, probably the last month or two maybe, but last couple of weeks.

Speaker 3: 16:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:18

Yeah, all right. So what was the motivation? I know you talked about the current career transition, but I mean you were your last role. You were interimmo and vp of marketing ops. Like you've been around, you know, assume you have a pretty good network and connect. You know what. What was the driver for being joining a community?

Speaker 3: 16:38

yeah, I just I knew I needed people, like I knew I needed people obviously going to step out on this new adventure.

Speaker 3: 16:43

And you know, I am maybe at that age where I'm more seasoned, right. So I I do have lots of experience, but the experience is mine and I'm talking to these different companies and there's all these different problems, right, there's different tech stacks and just having a community of marketing operations professionals you know that I can tap into to talk about. You know, what are you doing? How do you look at this? And especially with how things are changing with AI so quickly, right, just to kind of to be able to to keep up and know what other people are doing, and and frankly, um, I do have, I do have a lot of peers in my network, right, but a lot of them are more on that senior leader, executive level and, um, stepping into this, I will be, in some places, more of an executioner again, and so you know to connect with people that are kind of nerdy, like I am, and just really love this stuff, and so you know to connect with people that are kind of nerdy, like I am, and just really love this stuff.

Speaker 1: 17:36

So, yeah, that makes sense, yeah, yeah, so. So career transitions is an obvious one for people to have community. Leslie, maybe you'd like you've got the strongest connection of this. How do you think about why having a strong professional community matters in those moments?

Speaker 2: 17:54

Well, I will just let me just jump on my soapbox, per your invitation, michael. It is not just during career transition this should be. It is like it's like your 529 plan that you set up with your for your baby when they're six months old to pay for their college. You should be working on your network always and because what I see oftentimes is that people are you know that don't aren't like Penny that are like I'm going to go step out on my own. It's time for me to spread my wings and I'm ready to do this that they are looking for their next job.

Speaker 2: 18:28

The rug has been pulled out from under them and whether that's of their doing, you know, or the company's doing, it happens. It happens to all of us and it will happen to all of us on this call multiple times in the next 10 years. It's if you don't have, if you are not what I say properly networked, it is going to be substantially and exponentially harder for you to get your next job. Because, as AI brings you know I talked to HR leaders and as AI becomes more and more prevalent, blind applications, especially as you get more senior do not work.

Speaker 2: 19:05

I can talk about that for sure, and so you got to know somebody. I mean, you have to. You really have to know somebody, or know somebody that you have enough social capital with, who will go step out for you and say you really should meet Alicia or you really should meet Michael. He has an exceptional skill set, but what I can tell you is also is that he's just a good human can tell you is also is that he's just a good human. You know what I mean. Like, even if I can't talk to your marketing ops skillset, if I can go to someone that you've asked me to and say you know what? He's just a really good human, and I don't give that compliment lightly. That's going to get you much further than just a resume. That's going to get auto rejected from ATS and Ellie, take it over, yeah.

Speaker 5: 19:48

Yeah, cause I think, um, and this was the first time in my career where I had an extended gap, and you know this is such a I joke, it's a cocaine bear of a market, because it's just so insane. Sorry, maybe I shouldn't say that on a podcast, but here I am.

Speaker 5: 20:07

So it's all good, you can even curse if you want to, but you know, I think you know the hardest thing was, yeah, I applied to hundreds of jobs on LinkedIn.

Speaker 5: 20:14

I used AI tools, I did all these things and there was a shift where no one was, you know, responding to me, and the only place I had a lot of luck actually was the Slack communities. Everybody wants to help you in the Slack communities. Everyone wants to share job posts of like, hey, this is an opportunity and also someone who is a little shy to go up and network in person. I had a lot more confidence just reaching out via Slack and saying, hey, I saw you, you posted this role, would love to hear more, connect if you can, and I had a lot of interviews that way. And so I think to your point, leslie community is really important, especially when you're looking for your next gig, because you really need that in-person touch. I feel like there's some type of statistic out there about you know, if you know someone and you make a referral, people trust it way more than reading a review or looking at a piece of paper like a resume online. So that's why community is so important.

Speaker 4: 21:12

And Ellie, I think my story is also pretty similar to that. I was looking for a new role back in August and, honestly, every interview I got maybe one was from a random application. Every other one was a referral from somebody in my network, and that's what I tell anybody who talks to who's like Alicia, like I need some resume help, I need job interview help, and I'm like that'll get that. You like those, that they need to be good, but it's the people you know, it's the people you need, and I think getting in person is that extra, it's that extra step to like putting a face to a name.

Speaker 4: 21:45

I still remember I went to Adobe summit this year and there was multiple people that I met that I was like, oh, but you look a little different than I expected you to over all the Zoom calls we've had. But the rapport was just also so much better when you're getting to meet people in person, and that's the vibe that I love the most about all of our in-person events that we have here. The other thing, though, that I wanted to mention about sort of like Leslie said something and it slipped out of my brain at the moment, but I think the other reason that the slack community, especially, is so important in marketing ops is that a lot of us are like teams of one, teams of two, and like the ability to like send up a help signal or ask somebody else about like I broke a thing, what do I do?

Speaker 4: 23:37

or like this thing isn't working, what do I do is or just event or just yeah, yeah, or just vent like my cmo has like clearly lost his mind. Like what? Like help please? Like that is so, so helpful and I think, especially as I was coming up in the marketing ops, you know, industry, it helped me learn so much and also made me feel less alone when, like I did dumb stuff and I like actually had a person to go to to talk, talk about it, and like multiple very helpful people you know pushed me along, um and sort of gave me the, gave me all the tips and tricks I needed.

Speaker 1: 24:12

Penny, it looked like you you were going to add. I actually have a specific question for you that I'm going to throw at you with no warning after that. So do you have something to think of that you want to add to that?

Speaker 3: 24:21

Yeah, I was just going to talk about, you know, other than just kind of the referrals and just having people in your network when you're going through transition. For me it's been support, you know, stepping out on your own it's scary, you know, and I had a moment last week, like I was, you know, with a you know in a kind of a webinar with a group of ladies in a community and it was just really nice to get that support and that, get that kind of encouragement, that that you know you can do this. And guess what? It is scary. It's okay to be scared, right, and you know you still do hard things even when it's scared. I hear that from my peers, I hear that from people I'm close to, right, but in some ways they're kind of supposed to tell you that because you're close to them. So it's just nice to have that, just to have that ability to have that around us, I think, as we're going through changes.

Speaker 1: 25:08

Yeah, all right, here's the curveball I'm going to throw at you because I was thinking about this. So I think the perspective we were just all sharing is as someone seeking something through the network right, jobs, referrals, whatever. I'm curious if you, penny, have used network to find people when you were hiring or to like. I know I've personally not done so much, like, hey, I'm going to be hiring somebody and use the network or the community for that, but I've definitely used the community to go like kind of do background check without, like, without being as direct about it.

Speaker 1: 25:45

So HR is probably all like raising red flags right now.

Speaker 3: 25:49

So yeah, I mean I'll say for sure, you know, and I wasn't a part of the Mops Pros community before, so I haven't directly used that, but I have used my community and my network when someone's brought to me like to see you know who they know, just to ask about how were they really to work with you know, cause, I mean a resume is just so much right, it's just a piece of paper. I mean, it doesn't really tell us who the whole person is, and that's what we're looking for. We want someone that's going to fit in with our teams and sync and in all of that 13s and sync and in all of that. So yeah, for sure, I've always reached out to my community.

Speaker 1: 26:21

Yeah, I think that's the other part. So for those people who are out there, you know, if you're a person who's hiring and you haven't done that, you probably should be, and if you are out there, that's like just reinforce the point right. If you're out there searching, right, leverage your community to make connections is absolutely something to do. You're out there, searching, right, leverage your community to make connections is absolutely something to do.

Speaker 2: 26:41

Yeah, can I give a quick tip? Yeah, go for it. So let's say you are going to be hiring a marketing ops person or you have someone. If you're part of a community, go search their name in Slack, see what comments they've left. People are well known in. If people are doing community right, you should be known for something. For me inside, you know like people are well known in. If people are doing community right, you should be known for something you know, like for me inside of pavilion. If someone says I want to build a community, nine times out of 10, someone's going to tag me.

Speaker 2: 27:09

And so if you were to go search, you know, for someone or some topic, you're going to get a list of people who you might read through and see how you like their responses. Or you could, if you are looking at a certain candidate how do they participate? What is their communication style? Do they offer to help others? Like, there's a lot of information you can get through community as well. So, like, whether you're hiring or job seeking or, in that case, I just want to learn on, like, how to make a work, how to make a sequence. Yeah, I don't know how to do that. I I can make a one-step sequence that has an email. I don't think I'm doing that right. I think it's supposed to be a workflow, but I just call it a sequence because that's the only thing I know how to make. But I could go search that in mo pros and figure it out really simply yeah, well, I did that.

Speaker 1: 27:54

I actually did that recently with somebody who's um to know sort of as part of the community, but not a heavy one. But I was trying to learn a little more, try to accelerate learning about automation with AI, agentic stuff, whatever. And I was like I saw this person had been posting a bunch of stuff and I was like, hey, would you spend 45 minutes with me and just kind of talk me through what you've learned, because it's obvious that you've been out there experimenting and he's super gracious, shared everything. Gave me what he learned, like this didn't work. That worked, gave me some ideas on where to go and it was super helpful to to get that. Um. I have a question.

Speaker 1: 28:31

I'm sorry I'm gonna interrupt one more time um that person was a community person that you knew yeah, and I knew him other ways too, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Yeah. Do you think a random person would do that for you In the community? No, not in the community. The answer is no.

Speaker 1: 28:48

No, they're not. No, I think it's much less likely, right? I mean yeah, but I think if you were asking me if it would have been somebody else in the community, even if I didn't know them, I think that would have been better than a random outreach, exactly.

Speaker 2: 29:03

It's your glue, like you're part of something. Together, they're more likely to give you their time, you know, and not be like, oh, another person wants to pick my brain for free kind of thing. You know, because they know that you've invested in the community.

Speaker 1: 29:17

Yeah, and I've done some of my own legwork, right. I do think this is an important piece, right? You, there's, there's a you can overdo it a little bit, right, where you're, you're out there soliciting free, consulting advice from people, right, which, by the way, will affect your reputation over time. That will leak out. We all know we know who the people are. Yeah, so leak out. We all know, we know who the people are, yeah, so, um, leslie, I have a question for you. This is maybe more of a just a general networking thing, but I think it applies to community. I mean, one of the things I have heard and I'm trying to be better about myself is this the idea of kind of, on your weekly to-do list, right, make a plan to reach out to one, two, three people in your network on a regular, like different people every time, just to not not asking for anything, just to check in or or you know whatever. Is that? You nodding your head? Yeah, like you think that's a good idea.

Speaker 2: 30:09

Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you can put it in your schedule, I mean it's, it's fit. Literally I will go through and I'll just be like, oh, someone told me they were. You may be having a hard day, like, hey, just you know, thinking about you today, I hope your day is better than the last time we talked. That's 30 seconds. I do that three times once a week. I've spent a minute and a half those non-solicited. I don't want anything, I'm just checking on you. Things are the things that, like, will connect you and keep you connected over time. I have a friend he actually wrote a book, paul Abdul out of Toronto, a networking book, and he does what's called a free. He writes on his calendar it's a calendar item called free hello and he does it every week and he just says hello to three to five people that he hasn't talked to in a while every week, just to continue the you know, continue the conversation, see what they've been up to, etc.

Speaker 1: 31:17

I saw something recently I can't remember where it was probably Instagram or something like that where the other part of this, I think, is like there's this, if you don't like, kind of going back to this, like we're all connected virtually but not really Right. So a lot of people feel like they're on their own and I think there's something like doing that also is helpful for that person. Right, it's like there's this oh, there's somebody out there who's thinking about me, caring about me, which is, I think, really powerful. So, if you're not doing that, so I'm trying to do that. I'm not very good about about it, but I am trying to do it about about it, but I am trying to do it.

Speaker 4: 31:40

Put it on your calendar, make it a calendar item. No, and I remember reading something about I think it's called like loose ties and strong bonds, where it's um, I think it's like the hundred people who know you more loosely are more likely to recommend you for something versus like. So it's better to have a lot of loose connections versus like one or two super tight connections. And I think leslie's approach and your friend's approach probably like help build all those loose connections to sort of like support all the other career goals that you may have.

Speaker 4: 32:09

I like offering coffee chats to anybody who follows me or connects like hey, zero pressure, just like if you want to chat about anything, or even just like your favorite Netflix show, like come, hop on a zoom with me, and it is, it is. I will say I mean it is kind of intimidating because there's definitely days where I'm like what the hell am I doing? Or like I'm not ready to hop on a zoom with a stranger. But I've had a lot of really great conversations that way, and I think Leslie earlier like I'm an introvert I am too, but I think I like muster up all my energy and then after that I lay on the floor for a bit.

Speaker 2: 32:44

There's a secret to that coffee chat too, alicia, that I can help you with, and I actually I did not make this up. I got this from Leslie Vanettes. She has a separate HubSpot booking link, or whatever your calendar of choice is, and it's just called one-to-one coffee chat or whatever, and it's only 15 minutes because you can. You always have that extra 15 minutes to extend, but if the coffee chat stinks, you can get out of it at 15 minutes because you have a hard stop, and it is mine is only available every other Thursday for two hours, so that allows me to say yes, a lot.

Speaker 5: 33:17

I love that Because.

Speaker 2: 33:18

I hate saying no. I really do Like I'm a Midwesterner. Saying no is very hard.

Speaker 5: 33:23

So it allows me to say yes, I'm a Midwesterner too.

Speaker 2: 33:27

Unite, yeah, so it allows me to say yes, but in a limited capacity, in a way that I can work into my schedule, because, honestly, if I just said yes to every person that wanted to have a coffee chat with me, I would literally never do work. I would only be talking to people.

Speaker 4: 33:44

So like I'm suddenly like I only have one booking link. I need many more booking links now.

Speaker 2: 33:47

Oh, you need that booking link for sure 15 minutes and you set up it's like every other thursday, so you know from 12 to 2 on thursday, if you're booked, you can just like relax because it's a no prep session.

Speaker 4: 34:02

Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, in some ways I do enjoy them, because I just kind of got to like show up and like see, see what the vibe is, but, um, I think, corralling it to a specific time and place, I really love this idea.

Speaker 1: 34:10

So well, I love the idea of 15. I too, like I just recently finally set up a booking link thing and I didn't think of setting up a 15 minute one, so I like that one I mean I'll just be dating, but not with coffee. Guess what I'm doing after we're done with this speed dating not speed dating. Setting up the 15 minute booking okay with limited availability no no, don't get me in trouble. Like I've been married for a long time, I don't need that.

Speaker 4: 34:40

But honestly, though, to your point about the booking link, like if anybody's really serious about networking, a booking link is like the best investment you can make.

Speaker 4: 34:47

Cause it makes it so I'm like I hate doing that scheduling dance back and forth and it's been so nice to just be able to send people something to be like hey, love to chat with you's my link, let's find time. Um, so even if you're like I think some of us have it because we have like our own side gigs and whatnot, but even if you don't like just pay for a booking link, it's there's some free ones.

Speaker 1: 35:08

I'm using a free one. I'm like I don't like I got it from somebody else in the community in dallas. One too like is zcal, which has been great and it's free and it does everything I need and I don't need it to do a whole bunch of stuff I'm trying to schedule across teams and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 4: 35:22

So oh yeah, no, no See, I I use one Cal which I love a lot because I can sync like a bajillion Cal, like Gmail calendars, to it.

Speaker 1: 35:29

So I mean like other team members, like the whole, like idea of like round Robin assignment.

Speaker 1: 35:35

So anyway, even so, anyway, even free hubspot has the booking link. Yeah, yeah, so it's, it's so easy, like I did it all in, like I think I have now like six different ones. Part of them were for this right. So, as leslie knows, um, yeah, okay, so let's maybe, um, I think we've talked a lot about, like some big things. It sounds like we've all gotten lot about some big things. It sounds like we've all gotten benefit of communities. Is there any big stories that any of you want to share? If not, I would love to get your perspective on, in particular, why community spaces are important for women. Hmm, well, she's got an opinion here.

Speaker 5: 36:20

I think that's a really important topic. But I do have a quick story because I think it's important to talk about, about the community, because along with kind of looking at people and seeing what they're saying, I also think the community is really great because it's kind of that stealth mode of seeing what companies are doing. I know in our community we've seen a lot. I've seen a lot of conversations of like, hey, we're trying to do business with this company, what are you seeing? Is it working for you? And I think I've seen a lot of that. And actually I feel like you can see a lot of industry shifts that way.

Speaker 5: 36:51

I don't have to dive into that, but I know I had a vendor that we were scoping out and I saw a Slack thread about that specific vendor and how the sales process wasn't working or like people weren't happy with the vendor. So that's kind of my sidebar. But women are important to talk about. But I also think that's kind of an important like plug that you really get to see behind the scenes what's going on through feedback in the community.

Speaker 4: 37:22

And women are important in the community. I can. I have very many opinions there, no, so my first job out of college was at a financial brokerage firm and I was maybe the second woman working there. The first one was like this elderly woman who was like the secretary, and then there was like me, 20 something, and then all dudes and I think that was the first time in my life where it was such a glaring example of like women need women friendly space, even not even women only space, just women friendly spaces. And having like the marketing ops community, I think, especially online, is fairly diverse and it feels I don't safer is feels like a weird way to put it, because it's not like people out there are threatening or anything, but there is.

Speaker 4: 38:07

Being a woman in the workplace is just a fundamentally different experience.

Speaker 4: 38:10

Right, like it is not.

Speaker 4: 38:14

My male counterparts will never experience some of the things that I will, because there is a level of authority that is automatically given to them that women have to fight for, have to work for.

Speaker 4: 38:24

And being able to have a place where I can go talk to other women about the stuff that's going on has been so, so helpful to my career. Like I have one mentor who she really talked me through how to assess a job for like work-life balance, when I had first when I first became a mom. And then I told her, hey, I think my current job isn't the right fit for me, I'm looking for something else. And she's like okay, but you have a kid. We need to. You need to really make sure your next job is the right fit and like here's how I, with all my experience, have helped assess roles and her advice like invaluable, absolutely invaluable, and that's also, I think, in in running the Chicago chapter. That's the same energy I want to bring of like it's not just like your marketing ops problems, it is like your career problems, you're like being a woman in the workplace problems.

Speaker 3: 39:15

Like this is a safe space for for all those conversations yeah, yeah, and to kind of just go into that a little more, I'll say you know, we were on a call earlier this week and one of the things that was mentioned was men are hired for potential and women are hired for experience, right, and I think a lot of that.

Speaker 3: 39:35

It kind of, in some ways and I I've seen this hiring for executive level roles it comes from how women tend to come to the table. We do not come to the table with the same level of confidence A lot of times that our male counterparts do, and if we do come to the table with confidence, we kind of belittle it Like we kind of, you know, put kind of just, it's just, we downplay it, right, it's not really an accomplishment. And so one thing I see from these communities is just to help us recognize it Cause I don't like we don't even know we're doing it a lot Recognize it, overcome it and and then kind of support each other to to combat it and advocate for ourselves. And I think we're seeing that happen now right as women are coming together. It just, it gives us a safe place to kind of start doing that us a safe place to kind of start doing that Of course being good, good Ellie.

Speaker 5: 40:23

I love being a hype queen in the corner and I actually I feel like you know, leslie, we've been on calls or coffee chats and you just like hype me and Penny, even like we had a coffee chat recently and we had like real talks about things that we're going through in our careers. And I think you're right, you're spot through in our careers and I think you're right, you're spot on about the confidence. And I think, again, the thing about this community is this isn't like in. I think it's a safe space and it is a safe space. This community feels very safe. I think we've really protected. We're not here to sell people, we're here to help and I think that's what's important about a community. That's help first, sell second or ever, and I think that creates a really safe environment and especially for women, I think I'm constantly feeling like I'm being sold to, or there's a catch, or I have to be something or do something. That's what I really love about the marketing ops community, because I feel that in here and there.

Speaker 4: 41:20

What I really love about the marketing ops community because I feel that in here and there's definitely, I think, like the marketing ops committee is a pretty strong, like no assholes policy for it. Um for sure, which helps, yes, which helps a lot to just like we're not going to tolerate this. This is not what this, what this place is for, and like and I've seen that in action and I was really excited.

Speaker 5: 41:42

So that, I think, is really refreshing too, because it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to see it, which is really important.

Speaker 1: 41:50

I think I credit Mike for really establishing that and holding true to it without being an asshole. The other way right? Yes, so he gives people maybe too many chances in some cases. Leslie agrees.

Speaker 2: 42:05

He's so nice, he's too nice. I'd have fired a whole bunch of people in the community everywhere. But you know me, I'm a little bit more cutthroat. I will say that. You know, as a community consultant who has worked with numerous communities, you are probably the lowest ego community that I work with. There is a very low ego and I think that's part of what makes it safe and also levels the playing field a little bit so that the women on this call feel safe in the community because we're not having to feel to pump ourselves up to go in and say we're not having to feel to pump ourselves up to go in and say I've done X million dollars in revenue and worked at this fancy company and all this kind of stuff. So it does feel very low ego and you know, of course, being a little bit biased.

Speaker 2: 42:58

Being the founder of a woman, a community for women, you know having that place. And then, like Ellie said on the no assholes policy, but like not just having people say it but do it Like. So last year at Mopspalooza was the first time I've ever seen a dedicated women's event put on by the conference organizer. So the marketingopscom women's breakfast was the first time I'd ever been to a conference that had a women's event led by the conference and so and Mike has been a huge I mean of course we know each other, I work for him, he's been a huge supporter for us at Wednesday. Women we're kind of like community sponsors of each other because we just, you know, we both get it. But I really appreciated that last year. You rarely see a space where that is just for women, built within the conference. That doesn't just happen on the side, that isn't put on by a vendor, that isn't an accident, you know, or it was put on with a lot of intention and I was super impressed about that and I'm not super impressed.

Speaker 4: 43:58

Can I ask like a side, like like a side detour question here Sure, Sure. What does a big ego community look like if we are low ego?

Speaker 1: 44:06

I can, I can, I can give you. I'll give you an example. So I've been in a number of communities. I mean, that's how Leslie and I met was through a community. That's not the one I'm going to talk about.

Speaker 2: 44:14

Cause I don't participate in that conversation. I got it.

Speaker 1: 44:16

No, no, no no, no, I know, I know, and that one for other reasons. It was time for me to leave that one break, but but it was not because of ego. I actually still have connections from there that I actually, I think are really, really great and I admire a lot of people there. But there was another one that, truth be told, I sort of snuck into, like somebody added me into this community, um, and I thought I was not super active, but I was active enough where I thought I was adding value and things like that. But then all of a sudden my access was completely revoked with no warning, and it turns out what was happening is they were cutting people who hadn't had the right kind of job titles and so even in that one, up until that point I I didn't, I wasn't super active.

Speaker 1: 45:04

For other reasons, right, I just didn't think a lot of the conversations were all that interesting, um, but where I thought was appropriate, I would add my thoughts and provide help and, you know, got on calls with people and stuff like that. But the way it ended was I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Like really, and it just like it was like. That to me was like now that one is run by, um, I'll generally call it uh, corporate entities, right? I won't say who they, who they are, um, so it's their choice, right.

Speaker 1: 45:36

But at the same time it's like okay, so I never had a vp title. I've had responsibilities that were like a VP, but like that. So it was like, okay, I let it go. But it was like I had at least two or three other people who were part of the community. When I told them what happened, we're like what the fuck? Right. So. So, by the way, ellie, there's like you can curse like I'm cause I'm way. You can curse like I'm cause I'm. So that's to me. I don't know, leslie, if you have other examples of like, what a high ego or non low ego one is like, but that, to me, is the first thing that came to mind.

Speaker 2: 46:08

Well, yeah, I know exactly who you're talking about. So you're you're trying to be slick, but we all know who you're talking about. Um, maybe, maybe everybody else doesn't know, but, um, yeah, I just think you know, I don't know, it's just how you can, how you show up, how are you able to show up? Can I show up as Leslie messy? Leslie, you know, can I show up in my hoodie? And whether I have on a hoodie and whether I'm working outside or actually working in an office does not diminish the same expertise I had if I had on a dress or I had on a suit or I actually put on makeup that day.

Speaker 2: 46:42

You know what I mean. It's like being able to come as you are, to be your whole self and be recognized as your whole self. And I think that's what Ellie and Penny were alluding to in their community conversation, that it went beyond. They didn't just talk about toggles and HubSpot or marketing ops strategy. They talked about something beyond the person behind the title, the person behind what they do in life, and that is really the really is the glue that will hold, you know, a community together, and being able to make a space that that is approachable is a real art.

Speaker 2: 47:23

I will say, of the communities that I work with, a few have gotten there. Some have gotten there over rocky bumps, some have been there and lost it. It is a very hard place to get to and it's a very hard place to stay, and I think on the global level, with 10,000 people in a community, you'll never achieve that. But that's why these local groups are so important, because you can achieve that with 20 or 30 or 50 people or 100 people, and so I think that's why the chapter program at Marketing Ops is so important, the women's breakfast at Mopspalooza is so important and so that's just. Sorry, I'm a little biased. I do actually, even though I know nothing about marketing ops, I really like you. I'm trying to go to Mopspalooza, even though, again.

Speaker 2: 48:10

I know nothing about what you talk about. I just want to come talk. I just want to come talk to all of you. I just want to give you a hug yeah, please come to the.

Speaker 4: 48:17

Vast Plaza. We'll see.

Speaker 2: 48:18

We'll see I'm working on it.

Speaker 1: 48:21

Yeah, I mean, some of this to me reminds me of why I think coaches and mentors are so important, right, because it's or just I think I can't remember if it was Alicia Somebody talked about the circle of 100 people. The ones that are closest to you are actually the least likely to give you the tell you the stuff you need to hear. Right, because they don't want, like they are so close to you, they don't want to damage the relationship, right, and so I think having, like that's the beauty of having this kind of network is that you've got people who you may become close over time. Right, but it's a different level and if, if it's, yeah, so I mean I think that's really powerful. And if people don't haven't had that experience, right, if they're lucky enough to have had a course that people are truly honest with them in their life, then they're, they should consider themselves lucky.

Speaker 1: 49:13

But I think a lot of people over time lose that Right, and it becomes family. You know, if it's just family, right, and it's like certainly not going to get what you need to hear unless you just happen to have a really stellar family type of relationship, because that's also unusual, um, anyway, off my soapbox now, but, um, okay, so leslie, people join community like penny and others, right, and they get in there like, oh so, like what do I do now? Like I'm now a member, like what do you suggest? How do they start to get engaged?

Speaker 2: 49:48

Well, I would say every member, every community that I work with, has an intro channel. First thing you do is you go put an intro in, because, I mean, I still, in a big community that I'm in, I read the intro channel at least once a week. I want to find out who's like me, who's doing things that are interesting. I connect with a lot of the new members and so it's like a hundred percent introduce yourself, a hundred percent, read up 2020 intros. Connect with a couple of people, leave a couple of comments.

Speaker 2: 50:18

Um, the biggest thing I always tell people is that no one can help you if they don't know who you are, which means if you're not giving away your knowledge for free and you're not participating when it's your time of need whatever that need is and whether that's just like I need a, how do I unfix the mass email that I just sent, or whatever no one's going to help you because they don't know who you are. Dissent or whatever. No one's going to help you because they don't know who you are. So, if you are not at least visible in some respect, you will never get the most out of your community experience.

Speaker 1: 50:48

What you put into it, you get out of. It is what you're saying, actually what you put into it.

Speaker 2: 50:52

I think I've gotten tenfold out Fair enough.

Speaker 1: 50:56

But if you don't put anything in multiplier of zero, the multiplier is still zero.

Speaker 2: 51:00

Yeah, like value will never land in your lap. On this, you have to put something in. People have to know who you are. You have to give away. You know, give away all your secrets. Guess what? They're not secrets, we all have them. And and the thing is, once you give away your secret, people are like, oh, that's great, but I never want to do that. Can you do that for me?

Speaker 1: 51:22

Okay, okay. So kind of in the same vein, alicia Ellie, what's something that along the way, has helped you really feel like you're more connected? I mean, obviously you're local chapter leaders, but beyond that, more connected.

Speaker 2: 51:41

Uh, I mean obviously your local chapter leaders. But beyond that, actually ellie has a very important emergency phone call she has to take, so we're gonna let her go oh okay, alicia can take that call. Take that answer first all right, ellie.

Speaker 4: 51:55

Well, I will definitely see you around. Um, okay, in terms of things that help help me just feel connected with folks in the community, was that the question? Okay, I think it's it's. It's kind of what Leslie was saying is like saying hi to people, is reaching out to them hey, I exist. And also, to her point, being really generous with your knowledge. Like I am a loom fiend. I send looms to so many people, I do a lot of resume reviews and it's that generosity.

Speaker 4: 52:29

And also like finding a low lift level for you, right, looms are easy for me, so I do looms If you need to find, like, what is your level of easy? And sort of lean into that, right. Because that way, to leslie's point about like I find this message and I do it for 30 seconds and that's it. That's like my commitment. It's easy for her. She knocks it out. I do looms because that's really easy for me to just like crack something open, hit the record button, talk, talk, talk. Point point done, send them the link. Like here you go if you want to talk some more here's. Like here's my booking link. And also, like I feel like it sharpens my own ideas right, the back and forth of seeing what people are up to. I get smarter along the way and then that sort of helps me be smarter for other people.

Speaker 1: 53:16

So I'm curious, like the idea of Loom stuff I've had a couple couple people do like video messages through linkedin or other other things and like I've always like, oh I wonder how well those go. Like would I really want to do that? Like were you scared about doing that? Like what would that be like?

Speaker 4: 53:32

actually I don't turn my camera on for those ah I just like I'm sharing my screen, right, I share my screen and then I'm usually talking through whatever'm sharing my screen, right, I share my screen and then I'm usually talking through whatever is on my screen and my cameras off, because usually I'm like in my jammies and I don't want to like for a random stranger. But most of the time, most of the stuff we're talking about in the marketing ops community you need a screen share, like you need to like, or maybe I see Okay, so you're talking about like somebody had asked a question, so you're sending something like here's what I would do, here's what I would have done.

Speaker 4: 54:03

Let me like open up an instance that I have. I'll do a quick like show and tell or like I'm also. I've also literally just like opened up like a google doc and started typing in it as I'm talking through, to like sketch an outline for somebody of like whatever it is. Um, because I'm the person that, like, if I had a whiteboard, I'd be writing on the whiteboard all the time. So instead, I.

Speaker 1: 54:24

I'm looking at leslie's background and see the whiteboard.

Speaker 4: 54:27

I'm very jealous yes, so I like kind of use looms in a very similar way that's really interesting.

Speaker 1: 54:36

Um, yeah, I mean it can. Again, like I think it's the reason I asked the fear question is I think someone alluded to this before right, it can be scary to put yourself out there on some of these things and like I'm like I get shit about this all the time because I'm like I hate the word fearless, because I like nobody's truly fearless, right, like what, if they are, they're just not very bright. Right, they'll walk up to a, you know, walk up to a bear and wonder why mauled them later, right, but like, so there's. But like courage, I'm a real big fan of right. So like, doing something despite your fear is what I like I think is the better way of thinking about it, because it tells you that you can overcome the fear.

Speaker 4: 55:16

Right, fear can paralyze, otherwise, yes, I remember reading somewhere about like the 30 seconds of courage rule where, like you say, screw it for 30 seconds and do the thing you're afraid of doing, and like I think in marketing office maybe you need a little bit more, like five minutes of courage. That's kind of it right. Like you're not, we're not asking you to do this stuff out of your comfort zone day in, day out. We're just saying, like, take five minutes, do something a little scary and then you can go back to being whoever you are normally.

Speaker 2: 55:48

Yeah, I just want to add one caveat here. I mean, obviously this is I mean, we are just talking about my like love language. I could do this all day. I love this kind of stuff I used. I don't like to go to areas or groups that I don't know anybody, so I do like to have one at least loose connection somewhere in the room. So if you're listening to this podcast or watching this podcast and think I could never do that, there are born networkers.

Speaker 2: 56:16

Yes, most of us have been made networkers, have practiced. It is an art, it is a skill. You can't read about it, you have to go to it. I mean, I think, if I remember correctly, penny might have said she didn't really want to come to our dinner, um, but she came anyway, um, and so you know, I mean it's just like don't think this is how you. This is not the starting point. You don't start here. You start some wherever you are, and then just slowly, just do it, you know, and start to talk more and connect more. And if you have a conversation with someone online or in person, follow it up with a LinkedIn DM, follow it up with a Slack DM, like that's step two, and you know you can do that, and so I just I don't want people to feel like this is overwhelming or that they couldn't do this, just because we're all like, oh, super networkers, give me a community, I want to go all the time.

Speaker 1: 57:12

I'm so glad go ahead.

Speaker 4: 57:14

Sorry, the bring a friend thing is so crucial, especially for all our in-person events. I don't think I told you this, leslie, but I literally scheduled September's our coffee chat, our coffee session, around a marketing op, like one of my friends marketing ops, friends schedule. I was like, listen, I have to do an event. You tell me when you're free to come hang out with me somewhere at a coffee shop and we're just gonna invite other people to our hangout and she's like game, I'm done, like I'm in and that's it.

Speaker 4: 57:41

That's like literally whatever works whatever works, she will have a friend there. I will have a friend and other people can come and join us well, like so what I was going to say.

Speaker 1: 57:51

Leslie, I'm so glad you didn't use the term soft skills, right, which I think a lot of these things are considered called soft skills, and I'm like they're just skills, right and just like any skill people are. Some people are more naturally gifted than others, but they can. Everyone can become competent if they put some effort into it, and I think that's one thing that I've learned over the years. That often puts people in that fearful place, right, oh, I'm not good at that, I'm not whatever, so so, anyway, let's get one last question and then we're going to probably wrap up here. Um, in this free penny, I think as not only as a new member, but also as someone who's been in a senior role like um, what do you like? I've seen mixed things from communities for senior level people. I alluded to the one I was in and got booted from, but I mean, I think I see mixed things from there, like what's your perspective on how communities are serving senior leaders as well?

Speaker 3: 58:55

places for senior leaders in communities. And you know, I don't know that that's necessarily all about title, because you know, like you were saying, maybe you don't have a VP title but you've done that role right, you've had those responsibilities. Because there is a difference in what we're dealing with, whether if you're just kind of a practitioner, an executioner, or if you're running the strategy and you're trying to get buy-in and you're talking to the, you know the board. You know there's just a difference in what you're dealing with. So I think that's really important and I also think it's good if communities can help facilitate, you know, especially with being the age I am, mentorship, you know, as I look, I mean I know I didn't have the women leaders early in my career to help guide me right, it was a different world back then.

Speaker 3: 59:39

I was not taught like healthy boundaries, how do I manage all this? I mean it was just different. And now, you know, at this kind of at this stage in my career, you really want to lean in to people starting out in their careers and help. I know at least I do. I have some, you know my peers that do, and so some of the communities helping to facilitate some of that, I think is helpful as well.

Speaker 1: 1:00:01

Yeah, I think I've heard this multiple places where I think, in particular in the context of CEOs, who very often feel like they have nobody to go to Because the concern that their direct reports are going to be yes people, their direct reports are going to be yes people, right, yeah, it's hard to. If you've not been in that kind of role, it's hard to understand how that could possibly be the case, but it's definitely a thing that I've seen. This has been a great conversation. I'm so glad we could pull this together. Leslie, thank you for organizing it. Sorry, ellie couldn't stay on. Penny Ash, alicia, thank you so much. It's been a lot of fun. I've enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

Normally, I would ask everyone to say where people can connect with you. I'm going to say probably the marketingopscom community number one, and then LinkedIn. I heard that, so I'm going to guess those two. If there's anything else, we can share that with show notes or something later. But, um, again, thank you so much for doing this. I know it was pulled together fairly quickly, which is, um, like a huge shout out, because that is not an easy thing to do to manage and juggle schedules like that. So appreciate it. So, with that, thanks also to our, our listeners and supporters. Uh, if, uh, you have an idea for a guest or a topic, or you want to be a guest because we do take all comers then reach out to Mike, naomi or me and we'd be happy to talk to you about that and get things rolling Until next time. Bye, everybody, yeah.