Why We Nod Then Object Later

Michael Hartmann 0:24

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by MarketingOps.com and powered by all the MoPros out there out there. I'm your host, Michael Hartman. Today's episode is going to hit on something that shows up in almost every organization, but we don't usually talk about it directly. That is, why is it so hard for teams to say that what they actually think? Nod along with me if you know this one. Why do we nod in meetings only to raise concerns later in Slack or in side conversations? And why does so much work get, quote, approved, only to be reopened at the last minute? So joining me today, my guest is Kira Troilo. She has a really interesting perspective on this. She spent two decades in theater before founding Art and Soul Consulting, where she now helps teams collaborate more effectively, especially when the work is complex, creative, and involves a lot of feedback. What she's observed is that most teams are operating in what she calls performance mode, where everyone is being polite, careful, and trying to get it right. But what they actually need is rehearsal mode, where it's safe to be messy, disagree early, and surface the truth before it becomes expensive. So we're going to get into why politeness can actually be a hidden source of inefficiency, how rework, fire drills, and misalignment are often symptoms of deeper issues, agreed. What it looks like to intentionally design how a team collaborates and how to create environments where people can give honest feedback to get earlier. So Kira, welcome to the show. And why can't we all just get along?

Theater Lessons And Founding A Consulting

SPEAKER_02 1:48

I mean, I think we'd we'd have a lot of money if we could answer that. But um I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Michael Hartmann 1:55

Yeah, this is great. Um well, let's like so I think it's interesting. Let's start with your background, right? You spent two decades in theater, and then in 2020 you had to rethink it. So what was the trigger for that the catalyst, if you will? What did you start noticing about how people communicate, especially around difficult topics?

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, uh so really I've everything I have learned really about this topic, about business in general, has been in rehearsal rooms and theater. Like you said, I was an actor in rehearsal rooms. I've been behind the table as well as a choreographer, director. And, you know, 2020 made us all stop. Obviously, the theater industry was just completely halted. So a lot of us who were on this track of just kind of go, go, go in theater spaces had to sit back and take stock. Um, for me, I'm a writer. So, you know, I was at home with a two-year-old, yeah, you know, just trying to kind of figure out what is my life and what what are my experiences worth and what am I supposed to do? So I started really just writing about my experiences in theater. And what I surfaced was actually a missing job uh that I that I could pinpoint. Yeah. And and what it really was was, you know, I was in these rooms as a as an actor. Um, and for people who can't see who are just listening, like I am a black mixed race person. So there were situations where I was actually helping teams have a difficult conversation around, you know, like, um, what does it mean if we have a black actor playing a Latin American character? We just weren't talking about it. Yeah, we were just doing it. So, you know, fast forward, I could really pinpoint all these experiences where I had actually performed a role that I wasn't hired for, which was to help the team collaborate under pressure while servicing truths that we were afraid of. So rather than tiptoe kind of saying, Hey, uh, let's talk about this thing actually, so that we don't end up at the end of this process with uh, you know, a question from the press that we actually can't answer. So yeah, so that I really just jumped, you know, headfirst into the idea that I had a company that was solving a problem that we all recognized but hadn't quantified. And that was 2022. I started art and soul consulting and I uh just emailed 40 theaters and said, Hey, will you take a chance on me that I have surfaced this job?

unknown 4:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Luckily, some of them said yes, and off we were.

Michael Hartmann 4:32

So I could just say that I've been in theater because I was in a flash mob dancing, which is crazy to imagine.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

You do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

I mean, that's every single person I talk to has something that they like light up about around theater. So yes, I just saw you light up about the flash mob.

Michael Hartmann 4:48

Yeah. I mean, it's something that was probably before stepping out and doing this podcast, it was probably the most out there thing I've ever done. But I'm so glad I did it.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it it's yeah, it sparks for everyone. And I think it's so it's been interesting to go to folks and say, you know, I have this theater methodology, and immediately people are like, oh, theater, I love theater, improv. And I'm like, yes, all of that. And I think we've actually figured out something very, very important for all creative environments and all team environments.

Michael Hartmann 5:21

Yeah, it's it's funny. Um, I think I told you this when we first talked, but if I didn't, uh shame on me. But you're at least the second person I know we've talked to who has a significant theater background. You did, you did. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's interesting that there's this crossover between the challenges that go with all the logistics and org, you know, organizing the preparation that goes into theater. Is it like there's a corollary, it feels like, in ops world.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Absolutely. I mean, yeah, it's like the most high-stakes environment you can be a part of is theater, where people will literally meet for the first time, and four weeks later or less, in many cases, they are performing for hundreds and thousands of people. So you think about like a marketing team that has a project to execute, they actually have a lot more going for them than in a theater environment where we have to move so fast.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

So there's just so much to be learned from those environments when done right.

Michael Hartmann 6:19

Yeah. And you have to adapt in the moment, right? So exactly. We at least have a little bit of a lifeline with we go, oh, we can pull something back or redo it. And you know, in many cases.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

In theater, it's right, right. Theater, it's live. It's it it just is. Um, yep. So you have to prepare to get to the point where it's not a crisis, you know, when something goes wrong when you're live.

Michael Hartmann 6:42

Yeah. Well, let's so let's dive right in. I mean, you you you've said that um most breakdowns in communication or issues happen because people don't speak up early enough. So I'm curious, like, what is your take on what's really going on there? Why aren't people doing that? I have some theories, but I want to hear yours.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Definitely. And I think I I think I have a unique perspective here because I think what I hear a lot of folks say is it's about bravery and confidence, and it's a personal thing. You have to get, you know, to this place where you can speak up. And I disagree with that.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

I really uh yeah, hot take here. Um, I think it doesn't matter how brave individuals are if the environments aren't designed to hold that bravery. So if a leader hasn't designed a space where it feels less risky to tell the truth than it is to hold your tongue, no one is going to actually speak up. So I think what's happening when people don't speak up is that what they're afraid of is their vision of what is going to happen to them if they do. So they're actually operating from the fear of the unknown. It feels too risky and expensive to say the true thing. So they'll keep it to themselves. Whereas the difference being, if a leader said, you know, I want to design an environment that's built on the assumption that we are going to make mistakes. Now let's talk about what we need to be able to speak up to surface those. And how can we talk to each other and what tools do we need? That's a different environment. And that signals to individuals, oh, this is a space where they actually do want me to say the hard thing.

Michael Hartmann 8:32

Yeah. Well, and I think there's a nuance here. It's funny, you mentioned you have young children, and I think like a lot of this, like a lot of this is sort of for lack of a better term, beat into us, right? The to just try to not upset people. And if I could do some things over as a parent, I probably would let things play out a little more, yeah, with like because I think people do want to get along, but like it gets short-circuited, so they'd never learn it when they're younger.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Right. And yeah, I mean, I have I have two kids, and one of them is a baby, but one of them is eight. And we're hitting this now where, you know, he's at this age where he's starting to say things that maybe in past generations it would be like, no, no, no, don't say that. Don't speak up. And it's hard, but I'm trying to lean into like, nope, I I want you to be able to say the thing, you know, and and we'll navigate it together because otherwise I know that you know, a kid will just go silent.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

And then you actually can't figure out what's going on if you can't provide the space for them to share the real thing. So it's it's really hard. But yeah, being a parent is probably the single most um effective growth tool for me as a business person.

Michael Hartmann 9:46

I was just talking to somebody earlier today about how I should have written a book at some point. So everything I learned about how to manage people came from being a parent. Because like these adult humans, some business environments act a lot like toddlers.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Uh-huh. Oh, there's so my son is in Montessori school, and I'm like, we just need that curriculum in all these professional environments. Just like grace and courtesy and kindness and follow your passion. It's it's really, yeah, we we could use that as adults.

Michael Hartmann 11:34

Yeah, it's funny. Yeah. I mean, there is a little bit of a risk of this, you know, saying the thing. I think that's what you said. Um that I still think there's a little bit of, and maybe this is what you were getting at when we'll talk work through it together, is like, I think there's a it's a skill to be learned how to say the thing without completely damaging a relationship.

Rehearsal Mode Versus Performance Mode

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yes. Oh, there's definitely skill in that too. Yeah, it's it's both. You know, it's like if a leader can create a container for it, and then we can also develop the skills as humans, as team members, then we kind of have the perfect combination for rehearsal mode, which is what I talk so much about, is like the circumstances, right? Where we can try and be messy and fail and all those things that lead to product productive growth.

Michael Hartmann 12:22

Okay. You use that term rehearsal mode. And yeah, and I think you you also talk about performance mode. So, like walk us through what you mean by those things and how it might like contextually how it fits into the business world.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Totally. Yeah. So the the terms obviously come from my experience in theater where it's like what you see is the performance, but what actually makes it happen is underneath. So literally rehearsal mode. But this is kind of the scenario I've been walking people through outside of theater that seems to resonate. Is, you know, like imagine any meeting you've been a part of. Um I'm gonna assume people are imagining themselves not as the leader. So you're in the room listening to your leader, okay, and then the leader is sharing this initiative with a timeline that you know is not feasible. You can see about five ways this can go wrong, right? Like, but you're probably still just nodding along. Unless you have an amazing team where they've designed this the way I'm saying, people are nodding and it's you know, it's polite and it's fine. And then what happens? The whole team goes to Slack, the whole team goes to Teams, you know, and it's like, oh my God, can you believe this? Yeah, why do they think this can happen? Have we even considered what happened last year?

Michael Hartmann 13:37

Why did they ask me about this, right? Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Exactly, exactly. So the truth is there. That's my thesis is like it's the truth is all over, but what we're not seeing in that meeting is that um ability to be messy. We're seeing performance mode, and that is where people nod and smile and agree visually because it feels safer and easier to do that. So just think about how much truth could actually save the project down the road if what happened in Slack could actually be said in the meeting.

Michael Hartmann 14:11

Yeah. Well, and it's it's I when I think about this as a leader, like I I have a little bit of self-awareness and know that like I tend to be optimistic. So I need people who are gonna check that. And so I actually I actually look for that, even in that sort of example, right? Um but I like I'm a big believer in yeah, I want really vigorous you know, debate, discussion about anything that's important. Yeah. Um because I want I I truly believe that surfaces the best options, right? Now, that doesn't mean we'll always go with what that person wants, but it means that we all at least have some input that we have a realistic view, like okay, this is what the challenges are gonna be, and maybe we're gonna have to put in extra effort or whatever, but you get everybody behind it then, right? So there's an that's right. They're they have a vested interest in the outcome.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Right, right, exactly. And that is everything. It's it's rather than being like a top-down mandate, it's a co-created environment. So right, it's like your idea might all might not always win, but at least it's heard, yeah, and that's huge.

Michael Hartmann 15:19

Yeah. So I want to see if I could play this back to you. So um when you talk about rehearsal mode, performance mode is really more of a like establishing an environment where um rather than so if we go in and take that scenario again, you go to a meeting and there's some like basically it's a one-way communication, you know, everyone's sort of quote performing and nodding their heads and agreeing. Um, whereas if it was a rehearsal mode environment, that would be a little more of a two-way, three like multi like multi-directional kind of conversation or discussion. Is that am I capturing it correctly there?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yes, yes, quite literally, yes. And and it, you know, I think of even a physical design of a space. So, you know, if a leader is speaking at the front of a room to a team who's just looking at them straight on, um, like for fans of the office, that's one of my favorite shows. I, you know, like that conference room where just looking at the boss. Yep, you are signaling that there is a person who says the thing and the people who listen.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

But like what if we are all around a table in a circle and we're all in the same, you know, um we're all looking at each other. There's no hierarchy in the physical design. Then we're signaling that we need more voices in this conversation. So, you know, it's like even those little things can signal to a team that they are a part of it rather than top down.

Michael Hartmann 16:49

Yeah, we just we just had another guest on who's got a book out called um Um Love and Conflict. And it was her thing about good titles. Yeah, she had a similar thing about like the space matters, and she's like, Yeah, she actually hates it when there's a table in between people for like a really like tough conversation. And I was like, Oh, that's actually really like I it gets easy to get comfortable sitting behind a desk or between each other on a have a table in between.

The First Rehearsal Ground Rules

SPEAKER_01 17:17

So yes, the table speaks, like you know, that the table is a design element in the room that says there is a separation between us. Yeah, so I I fully agree with that.

Michael Hartmann 17:28

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Um, so that's a great point. So you've talked about we talked about before when you have um in theater, right? You have a first rehearsal and you talked about it being a time to set expectations. So it's again, kind of applying that to the business world. How is this like is this a way that you would think about telling somebody, like, here's how you would start say they but go, yeah, I want to be in a have a rehearsal mode environment and we want to start that. Is this like is this how you would start it? Is like think of it as a first rehearsal, or is that a different concept? Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

No, it's exactly what it what it is. I so when I started this work, it started it in the theater environments where I came up. And what I know about those environments is you kind of go in the first day, everyone waves and nods and is nervous, you kind of introduce everyone, and then you jump into what we call the table read for theater people there. So, like you just get to work. So where I inserted myself was in a theater, there's no time. So I'm like, listen, just give me 30 minutes during the first rehearsal, and I think that I can make a big difference in how this team operates. So I designed first rehearsals to kind of get out of our way of what expectations we were bringing that we weren't saying. So I'll I'll give you like my number one trick is don't say, you know, here's here are the ways to make a mistake or here's what not to do. It's to say, listen, we're going to make mistakes. We're going to mess up. People are going to step in it. What do we do when that happens? Not if that happens. What do we do when that happens? So at first rehearsal, we are signaling, okay, I don't have to be perfect. I'm going to mess up. You know, and like in theater, we're telling stories about trauma and power and race. Like someone's going to say the wrong thing. So if we can get over that and say, okay, when I say the wrong thing, we can agree that, you know, we can address it, we can repair, we can use these communication tools that I, you know, can talk about later that we've developed that um can help people kind of talk through it and move past it.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

And move through it, I should say, more quickly. So I took that first rehearsal design and essentially said, we can use this in meetings. Um, just take the take the pressure and fear out of the scary things. It's like, we're going to mess up. So like let's talk it through. What happens when we do? Um, and just that alone, I'll tell you, it feels so simple, but it just that rather than saying we're in rehearsal mode, like you have actually started to have a conversation about the how, the how are we gonna do this messy stuff.

Michael Hartmann 20:19

Yeah, I I love that idea of just saying like there will be mistakes, there will be people who say things that might offend you or hurt your feelings or whatever. And like we are gonna agree upfront that we're gonna handle that in a way that's that to move things forward as opposed to create wedges, right? I think that's the way I think about it.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Yeah, exactly.

Michael Hartmann 20:42

Um it feels like that would be a great tool for someone coming into a new team, right, as a leader, to use that as a way of building that from the get-go. I think it would and it would be especially good for someone who's coming into a team where that wasn't the norm, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Right. Yeah, and it gives people, you know, I find, because I've gone into rooms where, you know, we'll we'll talk about my my idea of the silence tax, but yes. Where there's there's a yes, there's like a a very visceral feeling of silence and things people are afraid to say. Um, and I found that this 30-minute conversation to start is a great way to surface some tensions without having to assign blame. So, you know, I'm thinking, for example, like maybe there's some unchecked egos on the team, which never happens with creative people, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

No.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Um, but then we have a space to say, okay, you know, we are all people who care deeply about this. Something that could get in our way is egos. So, like, let's talk about a way to signify that that's happening. Um, if it does happen, where should the feedback go? Where, you know, are there times like maybe every Friday meeting we start with like, what uh what is the feedback that we need to be surfacing? What are some things that it might be hard to say? And my very small team, we call it Feedback Fridays, you know. It's like let's let's actually carve the space out so that we're not holding things for too long. And it's like an expectation that we're gonna say the things we need to surface on, you know, 10 to 11 a.m. on Friday mornings.

Michael Hartmann 22:20

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Does this apply both in terms of like team meetings as well as like one-on-ones kinds of conversations as well?

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Um, it's a good example, I think, of that is I actually I have a podcast of my own and I had a conversation with someone who is very politically opposite me.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Um, and I was very adamant for both of us that we get together and we kind of agree, not on topic, um, but also, but to agree like where are the places where we can have a productive conversation? What what's off balance, like what's off limits? What where could we lose it? Um, and if we break the things we've said, what happens then? So, what it led to is like an amazing conversation where we really like we found the bridges.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

The common ground, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah, yeah. We found those and we had a conversation where we didn't have to agree, but like we both came out of it with a different something different we took away from it that was actually productive.

Michael Hartmann 23:20

Yeah, what I find when I get those kinds of conversations is that I walk away, I go, at least I understand the perspective, and I and I find like I don't I may not agree. It's well, how am I gonna think of this? Like, there's some people say, like, there's one person in particular who says famous person says, um, yeah, facts don't care about your feelings. And I actually really don't like that because yeah, I think I think it's assumes that that there can't be more than one point of view about a set of facts, right? I think there's a lot, and and I think that's so so and I think that's really really important. Like I we can disagree but I have like a set of built-in sort of beliefs that drive how I interpret that. And I think that's a different thing than saying you're a bad person or you're just wrong or whatever. Like right. And I think that's a I've had to learn that skill. Yeah. It's not an easy it is a skill. Yeah. And I it's not a soft skill. It is just a skill period.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Mm-hmm. I like all these things that are quote soft skills, I think are like the hardest skills. Um and in this age of like AI, you know, it these human skills are actually the most important and valuable. I really do think. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann 24:35

I it's funny I reason I ask so it's um I I still have the I still very vividly remember it was like I don't know two weeks into a new job at a company where I didn't really know anybody. I was I didn't have a team built I had yeah so it's just me and a lot of other people consultants and stuff. But the office next to me happened to be the creative director at this company that we wrote there late one evening and we just started chatting. Um she happened to be Russian originally so and we started talking about religion and politics. Two topics that's going to be off limits in a work environment right and we didn't agree kind of like you're like we didn't always agree. It's a great conversation.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Yes and and you were in person you know like I I can go yeah I mean I think all the things I'm talking about are actually what the world needs and you know in my corner I'm like we we can do that but right we've just gotten so used to for for a variety of reasons like you know shooting off our opinion and then walking away and you know it's it's these really hard skills of of recognizing that we can be in conversation and not agree and it doesn't have to get contentious um and we can stay involved you know we can we can actually stay in it and if we do then we're gonna get so much more done than if we kind of turn that off.

Michael Hartmann 25:57

The only pushback I would have is it can be contentious and that's okay.

ACT Framework For Fast Feedback

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yes and right in the rehearsal mode you agree like okay when it gets contentious how are we going to operate? And that's better than when it actually just gets contentious and you haven't talked about it in advance. Yeah. It's always easier to say hey that's right. You completely shut down and on day one if we had calmly on the first day said hey we're there's probably going to be some contentious moments you know let's set some ground rules for that now that we can hold on to and some tools we might be able to pull from the toolbox when that happens.

Michael Hartmann 26:30

Yeah I love that. So okay so you've got the first first one um so you you've mentioned this a couple of times right you've got some frameworks and tools like what um maybe walk us through a couple of those high level like what do you what do you where would you start or where would you tell somebody to start sure yeah so um the the main framework that we have is called stages appropriately it's an acronym of course um yeah sometimes I love a good acronym I love an acronym and because I love acronyms I've actually because stages is six steps I've condensed it to three for very easy understanding and I've called that one act.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

So the three things I think teams need to do are number one align on the context like if you don't understand what truths are in the space literally like what is true about those people coming in who are they what is the project what is the what is the world right now? What are the circumstances that we're dealing with? What's the bandwidth of the team? We need that information before we go in to try to design the how so the first is aligning the second is the C. Like we have to co-create the context. So rather than top down let's all get together and agree how we're gonna operate. And the T is the hardest and the most important which is take notes in theater we've perfected the the note is you know like you rehearse something and it and it works or doesn't and the director will give a a note just like a short little like try it this way or what happens if you do this. So the thing I love about theater is we've figured out like a very bite-sized digestible way to incorporate feedback constantly okay so right so that's not what I expected to hear when you said take notes I assumed like literally take notes so this and it can be it's that too but but the the quick theater note I think is important because it shouldn't just be that we do the postmortem and that's where the notes are. It should be that we get comfortable with feedback flying daily regularly because it is a skill it's a muscle. Yeah and it doesn't have to be a compliment sandwich right no I mean it does when you haven't practiced you know like but if it's just a normal thing that you've you know because the the beauty of all of this is once you're in rehearsal mode and you've figured it out, you move a lot faster because you totally you right it's like you know your sandbox that you're playing in.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

So um so yeah so it's aligning co-creating the agreements and taking notes. And I think the the first and the last is really where I see teams um slack or or forget that you you can't do like a set it and forget it for every team. You have to understand right like you said is there a new team member coming in is there a burnout crisis um are we implementing you know an AI tool and people haven't even talked about how they feel about it.

The Silence Tax And Rework Costs

Michael Hartmann 29:24

So that context starts everything right yeah okay can I push back a little bit all right well so you mentioned this earlier you talked about the silence tax and I think I was telling somebody about this the other just earlier today and I think I got the name of it wrong. So but the idea is silence tax I love this idea that there's a hit there's a hidden I think in my economics mind I would go opportunity cost or but whatever it's a hidden cost of politeness right so maybe break that down a little bit like what does that mean to you and then why why do you think it's you I think you would say it's expensive to organizations. I would probably tend to agree why do you think that's the case?

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yes and thank you I'm so glad you you were using the term and found it helpful. I'm really um struggling to articulate how bad this problem is and I think in a lot of cases kind of shove it as culture work or you know um this is wishy-washy feelings all of that so you know really just six months ago I was like okay I think I really need to go deep into research here and quantify the number because I know how expensive it is when for example like as a mediator I there's a tension brewing and I've talked to these three people and I see the blowup that's about to happen in three weeks, but they won't listen to me until the blowup. So what I did was kind of went back in the process and said, okay, where was the truth actually available but wasn't surfaced right this is like if there's a huge yeah so like think about like a huge HR crisis or a lawsuit. You go back and you say okay if the truth had actually been said at that first meeting think about the time saved you know time saved of course but um the cost of hiring a new employee when the employee quits. Maybe that employee had been updating their resume for six months and hadn't said anything. So you're left with a crisis to handle where even if we had tracked back six months ago, if we knew what was going on with that employee, even if they were going to leave, think about the cost change in having the six month runway versus this person just like picked their stuff up stuff up left and yeah now you have to deal with this.

Michael Hartmann 31:50

So there's that there's the rework cycles I know this is big in your world it's like if we're on version we're on version 20 right or 30 what is the cost of the truth having been available at version three but not surfacing until version 20 that is an actual financial number you know like or or a dialogue and that's I think I shared with you like a real example of that happening in a place where I was and it was like and I I was like I kept my mouth shut because it was like almost too many voices or or and this was a creative thing in particular and it was I think seeking what that person would call beautiful or perfection and I was like there is no such thing right it's it's not a universal thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Right. No like great let's define what does beautiful mean to this team you know like that's of that conversation. But yeah it is um you know there's there is an actual quantifiable cost to rework to uh quiet quitting or whatever you want to call it to launches that get missed I I recently talked to a very big company who you you'd know the company and they told me that there were I think it was like five million dollars it cost them when something got to the finish line but then something surfaced that actually prevented them from launching five million dollars it's crazy when all we actually needed to do right was create circumstances where the person who had that knowledge earlier could have said without that's the cost.

Michael Hartmann 33:25

Without the fear, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Without the fear without the fear, yeah. So I actually calculated so I I I did like okay if we have a 30 person creative team you know average salary of I think I put it at like 85k you know the average silence tax is$500,000 a year. And it's actually in researchable concrete numbers. So now I don't go in and say well your team has a culture problem. I say what is the cost of silence on your team I can show you.

Michael Hartmann 33:56

Yeah. So it's interesting so that really does follow the opportunity cost one but it's it what it was I I hadn't really thought about it. To me I was immediately going to the efficiency are we doing a lot of rework I like and I don't know why but it never even occurred to me to think about the actual like HR legal kinds of potential issues that could be out there as well. I mean that's that is truly not only expensive on its own right it is like there's a reputational impact too which is even like it's kind of brand affecting and all that.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

So yes that's um okay I'm I'm in I believe you now yay you're on board yeah I it's that's what's frustrating to me is like this is not you know obviously it's difficult to practice these skills and get like that that is hard but it's not it's not hard in the sense of like the the solutions are not more tools or more workflow or more structure. It's it's actually more human it's it's more human.

Building Trust With Grace And Proof

Michael Hartmann 34:54

Yeah because I think I think I I suspect a lot of people in our world would go like oh we'll just put more process or more um more technology in place and that'll fix it. And I agree with you like that to me this like amount of rework and how long it takes to get stuff out the door and changes at the last minute when the the final person actually has to approve it right gets involved and it's not what they were expecting like to me that's a signal of a lack of trust yes right and I think we talked about here like the words that keep coming to mind are trust and and um what's the right word but like forgiveness is is close enough right but you know like that's not the right word uh anyway I think like trust is so key to this right like and not assuming intent I think they that's a bit that's the underarm factor too.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Big one big one. Yeah trust I mean trust is not inherent trust is something that has to be intentionally built over time. And um do you know I I I say trust is you need evidence for trust. So have you read James Clear's Atomic Habits I have not I need highly recommend it's such a good book and I use it in a in a different way but of course he says yeah of course that's you know my brain thinks like a Peter person. But it's you know he says it's like to build a habit it's these little increments you know these little votes for the kind of person that you want to be so it happens and like you know I want to be a I want to run a marathon but that starts with like putting my shoes on when I get out of bed.

Michael Hartmann 36:40

Yeah so it's getting up out of bed first right the night before like it's like I yeah I get it.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah right right but I think it's the same thing with trust it's like you put these little bids in. So if I say this like little thing, how is it received and and the way it gets handled well that that becomes evidence for me that oh okay this is an environment where I might be able to trust and be braver and you know yada yada yada. So it's like when the leaders say oh my door's always open but no one ever comes in it's like well they don't know what happens once they go in that door.

Michael Hartmann 37:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

They haven't seen the evidence.

Michael Hartmann 37:16

Well and I think okay so I thought of the word I was trying to get out of my head is grace, right? You gotta have grace to okay. Let's let's sort of like this two sides of a coin there like trust and grace go together in in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah that like we're not gonna be perfect. No one's gonna be perfect. So it's like let's take that off the table and and start from there.

Michael Hartmann 37:35

Yeah. I was I think I was telling somebody the other day like I probably said I'm sorry more in as an apparent than anything any other time in my life right it's just like screw up all the time right like we're yeah right it's just when you take that pressure off of like yeah I am not I am not a perfect parent and you know I can say that to my kid I'm not you know that that's just the reality like let's let's have a growth mindset and yeah do this together. Yeah no I I think it's I I think that's great. Yeah I mean but like everything we talked about that like those are the words that were running in my head nonstop while we've been having this conversation um okay so maybe we could be as we wrap up let's get practical tactical right if people they're like me like yes I'm Olean I want to do this I want to have an environment like what are some practical tips you would give them on how to start surfacing truth earlier you know that they could start to apply themselves or encourage the rest of their team to do or if they're a leader like how to set the set the tone like what are the things you would suggest definitely yeah and it I mean it's kind of boring but it it's it's what needs to happen and and the beauty of setting up rehearsal mode is it can be anytime.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

So it it's not it doesn't have to be at kickoff for the teen. It can just be like hey let's call a Friday meeting and it looks like a leader first of all doing that work within themselves um understanding what truth might do to them internally. Oh yeah you know like what if you hear things that you don't want to hear and like just get over that and say you're going to hear things you don't want to hear. So do that work first, which is you know difficult and you know we work with leaders all the time to kind of say you have to deal with the emotions that come up when that surfaces. Then you go into a room and you say what is something that everyone knows here but we haven't said out loud. Right? And then like That's a great question. Right? And and you'll get information whether you get an answer or not. You know like people shift if there's laps, if there's like dead silence and crickets, you know like you can feel what the what the idea of telling a hard truth is just in that reaction right there. So then from there I would say to the leader like okay what needs to happen for us to feel like we can say that thing and then you're gonna have the conversation about well I'd need to feel like I was going to get fired. Well I'd need you know and then you start having a conversation about the how not about the what so you're building that container. And then the key is you have to tend to that so that you have to build that trust so it's not a one time conversation. This is maybe a once a week check-in or you know in theater it's a daily check-in because they only rehearse for you know three or four weeks. It's like sure we we have to tend to that very quickly but um yeah start starting is the hardest rip the bandit off and then just like practice rehearse.

Michael Hartmann 40:39

Yeah. So how much how important do you think it is to if you're a leader and you you do the soul searching you go like I'm gonna accept the feedback I get and something comes up and you go um yes we can change we can do this thing no big deal that but this other thing we can't how would you like because you can't do everything always right um no that's always been my struggle how do you how do you handle tell people to handle that kind of situation.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yeah and as much as you can prepare them in advance for what the outcome could be the better. So as you're setting up those guidelines whenever it may be a leader can say listen like my intention and right you can say things like my intention then rather than intent and impact my intention is that we surface all of the great ideas in this room. Now as your leader it's my job to you know use my skills and my judgment to decide blah blah blah blah blah you know so so you're already prepping the room for like I'm not gonna take every idea but I want to hear them. And then of course you just want people to feel acknowledged and valued. So even if you're not going to take an idea it's you know thank them. I'm I'm really thank you so much for saying that you know I really I really appreciate that. Another thing I'll say for this question is I think leaders often feel like they need to right away say the thing or have the thing figured out I think there's I've seen there's so much power in leaders saying thank you so much for all of this. I'm gonna digest this and I'm gonna get back to you once I've had a chance to think it through. So take it you know it acknowledge it people feel great and then you have the time to kind of sift through what you're gonna do and then start another gathering where you can have thought through it and and you know can can deliver back.

Michael Hartmann 42:28

So I think then what I'm hearing is the key there is accepting the input using judgment and yeah whatever context you have but then coming back and providing feedback like this is why this one is we I think we could do this and this is why but I need your help or whatever that is and this this one we can't do right now or we can't do it all and here's why but like keep bringing those ideas up I mean that is it you've got to show that you're you're actually doing something with it.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Yes like people are not going to give you feedback if they don't see it going anywhere. So even if you're not taking the feedback or or or acting on it, you are acknowledging it and celebrating the fact that there is feedback. Like that in itself is a huge thing and right you have to continue to do that and show up and say it's so simple but I heard you saying this and here's what I'm doing and why. So that transparency and that follow through those are those little bids for trust that I'm talking about that will start to move ideas faster and even see like how much money are we going to save because we can get to the better ideas faster and circle more ideas.

Michael Hartmann 43:37

Yeah. Yeah and it's gonna make it so that like if we can stop doing rework at the end, right, we're all going to avoid the burnout and get to maybe put up time to do things we really want to do to to grow and learn. That's right. You you said that idea like explicitly saying like this is my intention and it made me think so something I've done this is probably more a one-on-one kind of thing but I've like totally I trust you like literally said the words out loud right and don't don't leave it ambiguous on on things like that. So like are you a fan of that kind of thing too?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

I am I yeah like I now I'm a you know an employer so I have to practice these things with my own team and just yeah practicing those moments of yeah I need to let go. I need to show my team that I trust them right and that um you know hey what's what do you think is the best way to do this? I'd actually love to see what you think and then bring it back and let's have a conversation about it. Even just those simple things empower a team right and they can be a part of the co-creation of the thing even though I am the leader. So we're not breaking any hierarchy we're we're just kind of creating that again I love the sandbox metaphor of like the sandbox we're all working within yeah and and yeah I love it.

Michael Hartmann 44:55

This has been so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

I loved oh I love this this is so great.

Michael Hartmann 45:00

This is I love these topics I I I I actually been thinking a lot about this stuff and it turns out that part of this probably because we've had guests talking about sort of different uh dimensions or viewpoints of of this whole idea of building trusting um teams and organizations and how do you achieve that and how do you deal with difficult conversations I love it. I love it.

Free Silence Tax Audit And Close

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Yeah it's so important and it's you know like I'm a as you can probably tell like I'm a I'm a person who cares about people and at the end of the day this is going to make lives better. It's gonna attack burnout and all those things you're talking about. But I've learned like we can speak the language of money and what moves the needle and uh we should use that so that Right. We can both have better, more productive, creative teams and be more well as human beings in general.

Michael Hartmann 45:51

Yeah. Well, if folks want to continue this conversation or learn more about what you're doing, what's the best way for them to do that?

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Yeah, I would love uh for people to check us out at uh we're at art and soulconsulting.com. Uh the and is spelled out, art and soul. And if you head there, you'll find the free audit we're talking about. So I've created a free silence tax audit. So yeah, if you've heard this and you're like, hi, I wonder what my teams is. I think it's eight questions. You can go very quickly in five minutes and find the actual number. So I'd encourage folks to go try it out for themselves. And like I said, I love feedback. So yeah, but for folks to reach out and share what they think.

Michael Hartmann 46:34

I love it. Well, again, thank you, Kara. It's been a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it, and I think our audience will too. So thank you for that. Thanks to our audience again for supporting us. If you've got ideas for topics or guests, or you want to be a guest like you're feel free to reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me. We'd be happy to get the ball rolling. Till next time. Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Bye, thank you.