Welcome And Why Marketing Gets Misread

Michael Hartmann 0:01

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Opscast, brought to you by MarketingOps.com, empowered by all the mode pros out there. I am your host, Michael Hartman, Flying Star Low once again. But today I'm joined by Sheryl Isiman, who is head of marketing at Baeobab and the author of The Marketing Movement. Sherelle brings a really interesting perspective to marketing leadership and organizational change. One of the themes that stood out to me from previous conversations with her is that many organizations still fundamentally misunderstand what marketing is supposed to do. Her work focuses less on teaching marketers how to market and more on helping organizations understand how to better work with marketing teams in the first place. So we're going to spend a lot of time in the ops world. Well, we spend a lot of time in the ops world talking about systems, processes, execution, reporting, alignment. And we're going to go in deep into that in this conversation and really into the tension between strategy and execution, the role that ops teams can play as translators across the organization, and why activation, we'll get into what that means for her, is often the missing step between planning and results and how marketers could do a better job connecting the work to business impact. Theme that I like. All right. We're also going to talk a little bit about her shape framework, which we'll get into storytelling versus dashboards, another hot topic for me. Why marketing leaders need to constantly zoom in and zoom out between operational detail and strategic perspectives. Sherelle, thank you for joining.

Charral Izhiman 1:23

Thank you very much, Michael. And hello, marketing ops community.

Michael Hartmann 1:27

Yeah, we're glad to have you here. All right. Well, let's dig into this. So one of the things from our earlier conversations that really stood out is that you're not really you didn't really try to write a book for marketers, which is an interesting one being your background, and that you're trying to help non-marketing leaders understand marketing better. Why was that so important to you? And what how, like, I'd be curious also, what's the reception been for it?

Charral Izhiman 1:52

So

Misconceptions And Speaking Business Impact

Charral Izhiman 1:53

it was important for me to do that because when I was looking at the market, there are so many books out there by marketers for marketers, and it's a complex profession. Um, but it hasn't changed the way non-marketing leaders engage with the department of the function. There's all these there are all these misconceptions and um preconceived ideas, um, which is not helping marketing do its best work. So I was like, okay, I really need to find a way to get the best out of my leaders, the people I work with, uh, so that we can do a better job. And it dawned on me that I actually need to start translating the functions. But obviously, you don't want to translate the whole function to, you know, a non-marketing audience. Uh, and that's when the idea slowly developed, and I was like, okay, I need to write a book uh that simplifies it enough for them to work well with us so that we do a better job. So it came, it was, it was, it was a real crucial need in my day-to-day job to uh to have a better conversation with non-marketing leaders.

Michael Hartmann 2:53

No, so it was a little bit of a survival instinct kind of thing.

Charral Izhiman 2:57

Absolutely. And it took a while to to to to get there as well.

Michael Hartmann 3:01

Well, I'm fascinated by this because I think I don't know, it was several years ago. I remember reading something, and I don't know if the data is still accurate, but somewhere uh I saw that it was like well less than 10%, maybe closer to under 5% of like board members or senior executives had never really worked in marketing themselves. So they like they've just not really been in those shoes either. So it makes sense that people don't understand it.

Charral Izhiman 3:31

It does. And I don't think I don't think they're necessarily too interested. I think you know it's it's meant to be someone else's job, but it doesn't help the people who do that for a living do their best.

Michael Hartmann 3:42

Yeah, yeah. So what like when you when you started doing this, what what are the um what are some of the outdated assumptions about marketing or biggest misconceptions that um you see that that are happening in organizations?

Charral Izhiman 3:58

I mean, I found it really depends on um when somebody was exposed to the marketing profession or a marketing team. Some of them think it's advertising, if they're maybe an older generation, some might think it's PR. There'll be people who see it just as social. Um many just think it's you know, it's uh full of hype and campaigns and the pretty things. Yeah, so many different misconceptions, really. Um it depends who you speak to.

Michael Hartmann 4:23

Sure. Yeah. I mean, it feels like um I remember one of the things I've talked about is like the the four P's, right? There's like only one P seems to matter anymore, which is I guess promotion, right? So yeah. Um okay, so one of the things I've talked about before, and I think you and I talked about before that I agree with, is that part of the problem is actually on you know, sh at the feet of marketers who've not really done a great job of communicating what their role is, what they do to the rest of the organization. Like, what's your take on that? Do you mean do you think that's part of the problem? And uh curious, like part of the told I hadn't read your book. So is part of the what you do help to also address marketers, how could you better communicate to your executive team?

Charral Izhiman 5:11

Definitely. I think marketing professionals are you know too deep too deep in their daily routine and work. And I don't think they translate their work very well, especially when it goes, you know, upstream. I think it needs to start speaking or sound like business impact. And you know, they're talking about so much detail that you know your average leader can't absorb. And I also think um that there needs to be a tangle. You need to be able to step out of your space into someone else's shoes to speak their language. So there's a lot of translation and interpretation that needs to happen rather than you know, stick to the terms and and phrases that you would use in your day job.

Michael Hartmann 5:48

Yeah, I mean, it's the irony to me in all this is that marketer, part of what I think are perceived as being good at is communicating, especially communicating to the to their audience, but they somehow regularly miss that on the internal audience, right? I mean, that's the sort of irony of all this, right?

Charral Izhiman 6:07

Absolutely. I agree with you so much. Uh I think there's more pressure though, isn't there? When it's when it's your own, there's more pressure uh and you you you lean on the details too much. Well, that's not the point. And that's why in the book I used a lot of storytelling and metaphors. So I simplified it. So when I am explaining something uh related to marketing to a colleague or a leader, I'm not using you know a traditional language, I'm actually using a story, a metaphor, just something so different because they're not really that interested in our terminology. So why go there? Yeah, then and it would also be ducking down the profession a little bit, which I don't want to do.

Michael Hartmann 6:43

Right. Oh, that's a really good point. I never thought, I mean, I'm with you on the storytelling piece, and maybe we can talk more about that in here in a bit, but I hadn't really thought about it as a way of dumbing, like dumbing it down so it actually contributes to this misperception of what it is. That's um that's a really good insight. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, so well, okay, so maybe let's take this a little bit uh uh uh maybe a level deeper. So as you know, right our audience is primarily marketing ops or rev ops people. And one of one of the things I like about the the role is how it sits at an intersection between you know marketing, sales, finance, legal leadership, you know, it's sort of like you need you

Ops As Interpreters Across The Business

Michael Hartmann 7:29

know, you've got to have have feet at least be able to translate well, right? So I think that ops teams are uniquely positioned to help do that translation between marketing and the rest of the business. Do you agree with that? And if so, like what have you seen from the marketing ops teams in particular, I guess, that you've worked with? How have they helped you helped you as a leader do that communication?

Charral Izhiman 7:51

I definitely think market ops have a unique opportunity to translate. I was thinking about it actually earlier today, and it's not just translation though, I think it's interpretation because you never know what problem they're gonna deal with or what misconception somebody puts on the table where they go, no, let me unpack that. What do you really mean? And you keep going, you're drilling deep until you get there. So I think they have the opportunity with the one-on-ones, but I still think there is a responsibility for the marketing leader and leadership in general to set up to educate a bit the audience further, you know. So I think you need to do it from the top and you know, basically one-on-one. So there's a bit of both going on there.

Michael Hartmann 8:29

Are you talking about from the top and the and one-on-one with I was trying to make sure the one-on-one, you're talking about like with the marketing leader and the marketing ops team or marketing ops leader one-on-one, or are you talking about one-on-one with conversations with others outside of the marketing organization?

Charral Izhiman 8:45

I mean, it goes back to the communication uh element you talked about, really, isn't it? I think you can't under you can't over-communicate in this instance. Like if you've got an opportunity one-on-one to to clarify something, you need to go for it. Uh, but I think the leadership team needs to be speaking the language of marketing so that they can use that in business. I think uh it's it's it's kind of cross-functional. It just you need to communicate it from so many different angles because the misconception is uh the baseline, you know, that is the truth. Our baseline is that they don't understand, and then we're not gonna all of a sudden educate a non-marketing audience, it doesn't make sense either. So you've got to find a different way to do it to influence.

Michael Hartmann 9:24

Yeah. Have you uh so just curious, have you um, because I've I've been asked to do this, sit in with the CMO and meetings with the senior executives and try to like actually be the one to when the CFO asks a question, right? Right, I am I'm the one ask uh answering the questions. Have you brought in your marketing ops team to help with some of that facilitating some of that uh communication with executive teams, or do you tend to make sure that you're comfortable understanding it and then and then do that translation yourself?

Charral Izhiman 9:55

I think you have to bring in the team because um otherwise you come across as a one-man band, you know, you have all the answers, and that defeats the point. You do have a team, that's the whole point of what marketing is like. There are generalists, there are specialists, and you don't have the answers yourself. Somebody can explain it better than you sometimes. So I think the breadth is important, it gives more credibility to um the kind of message you need to portray.

Michael Hartmann 10:20

Yeah. And what I find is when you get into those scenarios, very often there you may be prepared as well as you can be, but then there will be a question that comes up that you would need somebody else to help you answer. Absolutely. So it's having somebody there who can can address those, or at least say, Yes, we can address that, and this is how we're gonna do it, and we'll bring it back to you next time, right? I think there's different ways to handle that. But well, I'm glad to hear that because I think I don't know that a lot of marketing ops teams get to do that. I think they're held kind of at arm's length from the other teams in case in some cases. All right. So I mentioned this when I when I when I introduced you, the idea of um zooming in and zooming out. You mentioned in our previous conversations of support to be doing that sort of zooming and zooming out. I guess first of all, like what do you mean by that, right? Um, and then why is it why do you think it's hard for most marketing organizations to maintain that that that balance of going back and forth between

Zooming In And Out On Strategy

Michael Hartmann 11:15

zooming and zooming out?

Charral Izhiman 11:17

So the reason why I like the idea of zooming in and zooming out because nothing is static, you know. Um the conditions of the situations that you're dealing with are never static. They keep changing, and that's why the book ended up uh uh being called The Market and Movement, because I realize things are always moving, they're always changing. So um, and zooming in and zooming out is because it's one thing to have a strategy and to have execution, but sometimes you've got to go back and go, why am I doing this? And say, and then you're still doing it. And it's just just kind of it's like this reminder. So, and that's why I feel like you're moving. That's why the word movement was such a big deal to me. Because um, and I was thinking about strategy just today as well. It's not just business strategy, it's your marketing strategy and then your brand strategy, your growth, et cetera, et cetera. So you can't keep all of that in your mind, you know. So you have to step away, uh, you know, big picture and then the details and so on and so forth. So you need to be able to move like that.

Michael Hartmann 12:13

Uh I'm curious. So not quite on the same level, but I've worked in a market, at least one marketing organization is the one I can think, I think of when I come to this, where the marketing leadership team worked really hard on developing norms of how we're going to operate within the marketing team. Well, start out with the leadership team, and then we said, well, let's roll this out to the rest of the team. And one of the things we did, this was still when we were all in an office, was literally had a one pager that was like, like we said, you know, put it up on your desk. We're print it out, put it up on your desk as a reminder. Do you do you think there would be value in having something like that? That's these reminders between like on a daily basis, like here's this, like here's our big picture strategy, what we're trying to achieve. So when you're working on something, like are you or something comes in from a side, right? I is it is it aligned with that or not, right? Or is it are we knowing that it's not, but we still have to deal with it, right? Do you think there's be value in something like that?

Charral Izhiman 13:03

It's so interesting that you say that because you know we were all in the same office, but we're not. I mean, my team is around the world, so I don't have that privilege at all, actually. I mean, we do have like you know, one slide which summarizes everything, but also I think that's great for the team, the marketing team itself, but it doesn't mean everyone else is looking at the same one page, right? So true. Yeah. And I also think a lot I also find that most business leaders that they want to talk and to be heard. So you when you intervene, um, you've kind of got to be to the point and it's very solution-oriented, which goes back to your point, right bringing in the rest of the team, because I think they can often brainstorm live and solve a problem live uh with that with the extra details.

Michael Hartmann 13:49

Yeah. Well, and what I find in those is like if there's a a problem or something that you're trying to resolve, usually most cases I found like there's not a clear definitive this is the direction we should go or the answer to that problem, and that there's trade-offs between different ones and having more perspectives tend in in encouraging that kind of um you know active debate or discussion um is is usually generates the best understanding of what those trade-offs are gonna be. So you can make an informed decision, right? You know that, like, oh, we're gonna go down this path, and we know that that means that we're gonna be giving up this thing, or there's a risk that we're gonna take on. Uh, but I think that's the reality of it. I think that's the value of having those different voices in in a discussion like that.

Charral Izhiman 14:38

Absolutely. And to your point, I think having the North Star makes sense. So you need that, and you need to, you need to obviously, once you've realized your strategy, implement. But I think um how that that changes quite a bit.

Michael Hartmann 14:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I I mean, I'm a big fan of like I probably mentioned this on this project before. I'm a big fan of one of the books that really influence me. It's called Execution, the Discipline of Getting Things Done, which is a little bit of a like rough title to get through. But I mean, what I remember what really stuck out to me is like strategy is important, but you need a strategy that can be you, you know, you just need to start executing, you're not going to be able to predict everything. And so you need to be to have one that's flexible enough that you can adjust, right? Now, there may be North Star things, right? Core things you need to achieve or goals you're you're setting, but I think leaving the room for adjustment is really important in the strategy. So um that's really like a point of view I have. I so okay, so one of the things in your, I think it's in your book you developed was the framework called Shape, so S H A P E, right? So uh why don't you walk us through what that is and you know why why people should care about it?

Charral Izhiman 15:49

So I actually developed the framework at the end. I had written all the chapters and then like, okay, what does this mean? You know, what am I trying to say here? And it dawned on me that the sections of the book

The SHAPE Framework Explained

Charral Izhiman 15:59

were basically a whole framework that kind of summarizes it. And the reason why I chose the shape framework is because um the book is about shaping the foundation uh for a team to succeed, you know, and um and the then the five letters stand for something. So shape is your strategy, your alignment, um, you know, exactly you know, your North Star, um heart is people, it's brand, it's all the things to do with feeling and connecting. Uh, activation was the really interesting one, which is the probably what the heart of the book itself, which is just all the work you need to do to be ready to be in business. Um, and then purpose is pretty straightforward because it's inspired by the brand, by the business, what the impact, the impact the company's trying to have. And execution is a no-brainer. We all know that one. So I found that strategy and execution, everybody knows them pretty well. But it's the elements in between that I was like, okay, don't forget about these. And I've just I described the shape uh framework as pillars. And if you were just to imagine that, imagine having some pillars that are, you know, sturdy and the others that are crumbling. It would just not make any sense. So what I'm arguing is you can't have a few and not the rest, you have to have them all. And it's because I've seen many instances where one of them is neglected or overlooked, and I just don't think it may I don't think it works that way. You you need to treat them um the same level of importance.

Michael Hartmann 17:20

No, this is a I I think this is really interesting. So the the strategy and execution people tend to understand, and they're easiest probably to describe, right? Yeah, and there's sort of the bookends is required. I like this idea that there's these other elements that you could use as a way of communicating other components. And um yeah, I think I think it's interesting. It feels like some of those, this is where it gets a little bit squishy, probably, because there's elements of that that seem to apply both to like internal stakeholders and executives as well as customer-facing stuff. Am I understanding that right?

Charral Izhiman 17:55

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I wanted to translate that way as well because you've got to align yourself internally to then you know do the work you need to do externally. You know, that it's a mirror from my perspective. So you have to get your uh pillars in order.

Michael Hartmann 18:10

Got it. Yeah, this is this is really interesting. All right, so the activation one in shape um is probably the one that feels the most connected to our ops audience. Um, and it feels like it might be an overlooked one. Uh, can you break that down a little more? And and when you say um the like the things that they need to do, like what are what are organizations missing when it comes to activation and readiness to to move forward with the strategy

Activation And The F1 Readiness Check

Michael Hartmann 18:36

and execution?

Charral Izhiman 18:38

I think when it comes to activation, um it's about being ready to do something, whatever it is, whatever your goals are. I find that it's taken for granted that somebody's gonna activate, somebody's gonna sort out what you need to do so that you're basically um starting a race. And that's why I've used metaphors in the book. And I like the F1 metaphor quite a bit because imagine starting a race but not having wheels, or nobody checking the engine, or there's no driver, or I mean, there's a million problems you can imagine. And we all appreciate you know the nature of a race. It's the same thing. If you don't have a checklist that you've gone through, having got the right resources, people, systems, all of it, um, you're gonna flop, you're gonna fail. Um, so and that's I find that one a really good way to explain activation because, like I said earlier, people don't really want to understand how marketing works, but they can absolutely appreciate that they wouldn't dare, you know, uh put a racing team on the track that wasn't ready to race and win. So it's it's like, oh, okay, I get why you're saying this. I don't know the details, but I'll appreciate it and I'll let you do what you need to do. You know, so that was where it came from.

Michael Hartmann 19:44

So it sounds like there's a little bit of element of that that um I don't know that I picked up on when we first talked about it, is has to be with clarity around roles and responsibilities, too, right? Because take the F1 one, like if it's not clear who's gonna be the one, you know taking the wheels, like doing the release of the wheels, and it's who's gonna put them back on, who's gonna tighten them? Like everybody's got individual roles um and responsibilities. And if any one of them falls apart, right, car goes out and the wheel comes off. I mean, is that part of it too? Is it just not only because that's probably like the you described sort of like these are the things that we would need to do to be able to activate to move forward, but there's also like who's gonna do what? Is that part of it as well?

Charral Izhiman 20:29

It is because it's the system, it's the people, it could be resources of any kind. Um, all of them come together. It's quite a chunky part, I think, to be fair. And I and I do feel like um there are assumptions because somebody might be assuming a role um and they're busy with this, they can't do that, but both things need to be done. Um, so yeah, it's it's all of those things. And I find them they're they're very operational, you know, going back to marketing often are very operational. It's kind of like it's someone else's uh job to do, because the higher you go up in leadership, the more strategy is you know, everybody's focus, and execution is very easy to see.

Michael Hartmann 21:08

Yeah. Well, and I think what happens if that's not that's not clear is people make assumptions about who's gonna do what. And then when it doesn't happen, because I assumed you were gonna do it, but you didn't you assumed that someone else was gonna do it or no, or you didn't think it was yours, then it doesn't get done, and then everyone pays the price for that.

Charral Izhiman 21:26

Absolutely, yeah.

Michael Hartmann 21:28

Yeah, and I think that's that's important. Um, so it's it's interesting. I maybe it's interesting now that we've talked about the the two outside parts of shape and the the one that's in the middle. Um maybe maybe talk about like I I I don't fully understand the the I can't remember what H stands for now. I was off the top of my head. So the H in the in the P in shape, what can I talk through those again a little more detail, please?

Charral Izhiman 21:55

Sure. So the H is heart. So um heart for me it Basically, it relates to uh the brand, it relates to people, so internal stakeholders, the customer, customer sensor, the voice of the customer, connecting, communication, all of those elements. Um, because you do need a communication plan, you need obviously a customer engagement plan, you need to have a brand. You know, you you know, brand is

Heart And Purpose Build Brand Trust

Charral Izhiman 22:19

a foundation element, and membership is about shaping your foundation. So that's what heart is about. It's all those elements that make the uh experience warm, is one way to look at it. That's why I chose the word heart. And um, as for P purpose, and it really is very much related to the strategy you have, uh, your business objectives, your mission, your vision, what you're trying to achieve, the impact you will have on the community. Uh, it's just that extra layer of uh you know uh orienting you, I suppose, to what you're trying to achieve.

Michael Hartmann 22:50

Okay. I think okay, so the hard one has to do with um how we want both internal stakeholders and customers or prospects to kind of feel about the brand. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, is that close to what I'm just you're saying?

Charral Izhiman 23:10

Yeah, it's the it's to how they will engage the brand because I mean, what will a brand do? I mean, a brand is important for your foundation as a marketing team, uh as a marketing team, but how do you know a brand is successful if it's resonating with the customers and it is actually helping you with your growth marketing and so on and so forth? And uh for it to resonate externally, it needs to be uh, you know, adopted and you need people need to believe in it internally. So it just plays such an important foundation. It's not just logos and colors and uh taglines and those those kind of you know, yeah, that's like the least part of it. Face value things, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's it's it's the heart. That's why I like to uh describe it as the heart because you either feel it, it moves you, uh it does something uh which which is intangible until you quantify it as equity, but you know, it does matter and it does help you move. And that's the whole point is you want to move an organization forward.

Michael Hartmann 24:03

Yeah, well, and and then the purpose is really, I think it feels like it's alignment around um values, norms, um, you know, what's the bigger purpose, right? Uh of the organization. And I mean, I think that's important because especially if you're in an organization, like people want to be part of something that has purpose. I think I think there's a lot of that missing in a lot of people's professional lives. Um and I want to drill down those because I feels like the it would be easy to skip over those from an operation standpoint, but it feels like again, kind of going back to like having something in front of you that goes like this is the norms we expect for us, right? So if we're gonna live out our values, this is like this is how we're gonna communicate, both internally and externally. This is the expectations we're gonna have for people. Um and the the the hard part, here's what like the where it comes to me with uh from an op standpoint. I would love to get your take on this. Is one of the things I see a lot of organizations, especially big organizations, is there's this um this in sort of uh a norm that happens is like we're like really cautious about how people communicate to customers, right? Or who can do it. And uh, and then maybe there's lots of layers of approvals and reviews on content and things like that. And I'm like that's such a slowdown thing. Like, if we if we let people like we give people the grace, like we trust you to do this because you all understand there's elements that are part of heart and purpose that we trust you you're gonna make the best decisions you can in the moment to say communicate with a frustrated customer or something, um, and then give grace with it if it doesn't go well, and then learn from it. Like in my like that's why I feel like it's an important piece. And it's it's really I don't think a lot of organizations I've seen or been around have really talked about that and then lived it out.

Charral Izhiman 25:59

Absolutely agree with you. And it's interesting. I think we do a lot of uh we do a lot of brand education um where I work right now. And um I think people who are customer facing still feel the pressure. Um, did I am gonna say the right thing? Um when you would you want to check this? Uh, should I do this? Should it not do that? And I'm at the moment, I'm trying to encourage everybody to just, you know, live the brand, represent it, you know, like as long as you are moving forward with good intent, the chances are you are gonna do the right thing because you've got all the right values, ideas, and training in place. And I do think you need to do that because I don't think you can't we can't be a bottleneck anymore. And time is changing, you know, like we've got all these platforms, uh social, um, user-generated content, all of that. And it's it's normal to generate content. So if you don't know how to represent your brand, uh I'd say it's a bit outdated. You need to be able to do that because it's just everyday life. Content is so easy to create, and we all do that.

Michael Hartmann 26:57

Yeah, well, and it exactly. We're all this is when I was doing work in like customer service kind of or customer support kind of stuff, is um, you know, people always had to use very rigid, structured ways of pushing knowledge-based content out, right? And it took so long, it never got reviewed. And so people who were actually doing the communicating directly had their own version, right? They were already communicating stuff. So I was like, why put all these hurdles in the way of getting it out? If it's we think if we truly believe that getting these answers to customers so they can solve their own problems faster is useful. And it was such a hard thing to get people to really go like, oh yeah, like that recognition, like the communication's already happening, whether you know it or not. Now we can at least make it more visible.

Charral Izhiman 27:43

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And it's a bit of trust, isn't it? There's a bit of trust there, isn't there? I think people want to give them a bit of trust. And you know, if it's not perfect, so be it. You know, you but I think intent, I do think customers uh read intent, you know, as long as the intention was well and uh it's behaving. So it's better to show up than to be too scared to show up.

Michael Hartmann 28:05

Yeah, and and I I totally agree with that. Okay, so um we talked about like the strategy execution are pretty well understood, and um I think in some ways I think marketers tend to part of their communication tends to fall towards what called execution, including the metrics about execution. Why why do you think that um why do you think that there's it feels like there's more celebration of

Why Execution Gets All The Attention

Michael Hartmann 28:32

execution versus strategy in a lot of organizations? Why do you think that is? Or might tell me I'm off base here.

Charral Izhiman 28:40

No, I I think I agree with you. I I think execution, if I was just to think of an army, I think execution is the soldiers. They just so many people are executed, there's so much work to be executed, to be done, right? But strategy, you know, it's very much uh a direction, you know. You you in a way, once you know where you're going, you know, you don't change your strategy every day, do you? But it takes so much to realize that strategy. So I suppose that's what happens. Um, so I think we we we end up having this comfort that a strategy is done and realized or sorted out, you know, and that all the work now is execution. But interestingly, your strategy sometimes has to change, doesn't it? Sometimes you have to fear, sometimes, you know, you know, the market's changed or you know, it doesn't work anymore. That that will happen too.

Michael Hartmann 29:24

So yeah. I mean, that's why I'm a big fan of having a strategy. I I don't want to discount the effort you should put into developing a strategy. I think you need to have that. But I think, again, like having the flexibility to adjust based on what really happened. The the analogy I use, even though I'm not a sailor, is sailing, right? I know I want to go from point A to point B. The best I know is the conditions that are really close to me. What I don't know is when I get out, right? Is the wind shift, wind going to change direction? Is it gonna stop? Is it like, and I have to be really ready to adjust to still make it to like head in the right direction and then then learn and adjust. And that's like I feel like that's the way strategy should be, right? You need to like, oh, I need to go here from here to there. I know generally where I how I need to start going there, but I need to be flexible.

Charral Izhiman 30:12

Absolutely. One of the chapters in the book, um, and I I used metaphors uh related to direction, and it was the audience is the compass. And I think ultimately, you know, that is how you know which way you need to go. Um, and I'm going back to the F1 when I was listening to you there as well. Like when people are on the track, but when they're making decisions which race to join, it's the same thing. You you can't do everything in anything uh as well. Um, you've got to choose what actually makes sense for the business and what you're trying to achieve. So yeah.

Michael Hartmann 30:41

I mean, it's it's this is like one of the biggest lessons, both in personal productivity and in business, is like choosing wisely what to say no to.

Charral Izhiman 30:50

Yeah, very much so. Absolutely.

Michael Hartmann 30:53

Um, because we all feel like we want to do like a lot of us in this space want to do more. Um, okay, so I want to get maybe this is where we can kind of move come back to the storytelling piece. So one of the things I think you and I talked about talked about before was you know, there's obviously a need for reporting and metrics. And um, oftentimes it comes to marketing ops teams, is

Dashboards With Discipline Plus Storytelling

Michael Hartmann 31:16

like I want a dashboard. So one of the challenges I keep running into is that um, yeah, sometimes like there's a desire to do metrics for metric's sake almost, right? And they don't internally don't always match what kind of going back to the original premise, right? That the other parts of the business don't understand marketing. From your perspective, how should marketing leaders be thinking differently about what they're measuring and reporting to the organization? And where does like and then maybe go into like where the storytelling piece comes in?

Charral Izhiman 31:52

Well, when it comes to metrics and dashboards, uh I used Metaphor Sweet Shop. And I think it really is. I feel like dashboards are like a sweet shop. You go in there, and there's so many things you could buy or taste or try, but do they really do you really need them or you don't? And I think that's the same thing as dashboards. I think you know, an ideal dashboard for a mature organization um has a lot in there, but then different stakeholders need to see from a different perspective. So, anyway, you need different versions of that. Um, and it can get exciting because the data gives you a lot of obviously helps you make decisions, but you you really don't need it all. And and different stakeholders and different levels in the organization need different data anyway. So I I've actually I really shy away from dashboards and I kind of like the idea of what one thing to really need to know, one thing at a time, one thing at a time. And and it goes back to the sweet shop, like a sugar rush, a sugar rush, you know. You just don't need them all. You need one thing, and just if it's social, just to keep it really simple. Um, you know, if you're starting out fresh, maybe you need followers, maybe it really is just how many people see me, know me. Uh, but eventually you need engagement, nothing else. Just focus on that and and you keep evolving. But I don't think you want measuring them all just feels like you're getting busy. I think it's like an overload. And I don't find it helps because uh it just becomes overwhelming and you don't know which one you want to advance. And you need to uh when I did the shape framework, I also came up with the Move It Readiness Index. And concept there was what's your next quarter moves? What's the one thing you need to do? Just one thing. I like to scale it back so much uh because I've needed to scale it back myself so often as well. You know, when I've gone, oh my god, there's all these things that everybody wants and expects of me. But really, which one will I focus on so that I can go and say, okay, I move the needle here, and this was the impact. Um, so I think of metrics uh and dashboards as a sweet shop, like you can't have them all, you have to be disciplined, you know.

Michael Hartmann 33:51

That's a fun analogy. Yeah, I mean, I think every time I get I've been asked to like go build a dashboard and we didn't have any others like like no, I uh I almost want to say no. I usually don't just say no, but I will say, like, kind of to your point, like what are the things like what are the initial metrics you think we should we you we need? And let's start there, like let's nail that down. Um, but you you hit you hinted at this, and I think this is a really important point is even if we say we want to do all these metrics, not all of them are appropriate for every audience, right? And I think that's a really important distinction that that a lot of marketing and marketing ops teams need to understand is it's amazing how much data we have as marketers now. It's truly incredible. Yeah. So, like, like, and so there's this, I think there's this urge to be data driven in quotes, right? Which I really hate even using that term because I like I think it the the risk there is that you get caught up in data for data's sake and not useful, especially for the right the wrong audience, right? So if you're talking about, I you give you your example, your social media ones, right? I don't know how much the CEO or CFO is going to care about that unless you can bridge that with a story, right? Yeah, this is why we care about engagement, right? Um, but you don't necessarily need to show all the other stuff underneath it. Now, should the the marketing team, especially the p team that's working on that, understand the sort other details of that? Absolutely, right? But that's a different audience for a different purpose, yeah. Yeah. So tell me your like I I know I have my own sort of version of why I think storytelling is a is a missed opportunity for a lot of marketers, and I think it goes back to this desire to be more seen as data driven, that we've almost gone too far in the direction of just presenting data and numbers as opposed to telling stories internally. What like what's your take on it? Like, is there a time that like something clicked for you where that happened? Or what's your like what's your view on storytelling as a part of measurement?

Charral Izhiman 35:50

I think for me, storytelling is basically helping this the person you speak to understand. I think they're you know, the mind is like a parachute, it works best when it's open. And I think if you throw numbers at people, um they're trying

Listening First To Earn Collaboration

Charral Izhiman 36:04

to comprehend and take it all in and connect the dots. But if you if you deliver that as a story, it's it's easier. You know, they can just they can absorb what you mean. Um, and that's why I go back to metaphors again because metaphors stories are kind of work together. But I think it just helps something land quicker, and I think it neutralizes my terminology as a professional and your terminology of professional, and it just helps us speak plain English in a way, really. And I find stories help us do that. They're quick, they're short, there's a bit of emotion in there, so we could kind of get it, but you're also delivering, you know, a few facts here and there. So I like delivering stories that way because of that. And also from my side, I don't remember every term that uh I need to use as well. So it's like me making sure I will deliver uh a story that you know resonates and people understand rather than trying to go, okay, remember this and this and that. You know, so it's it's delivery and it's also how it's received. You know, I find it just makes it so much easier for communication.

Michael Hartmann 36:59

Yeah, I mean, I love the idea of analogies or metaphors. Um, curious what your take is like how important is it? Because you you kind of, I'm not sure I picked this up, but it sounded like you don't love, I'm putting putting words in mind, don't love the idea of using your terminology or the terminology of the per other person or people that you're referring to. Um, in my view, like I think understanding their terminology is useful. I don't know that I would use their terminology to talk about how market like what marketing's done, unless it made sense to do it. Sales is probably the most logical place, but did I am I am I misunderstanding what you're saying? Like it's not that you don't want to use it, is it more that you don't want to use their terms or um but you still want to understand it, or is it something else?

Charral Izhiman 37:43

No, no, no. I mean, I I I appreciate your question there, actually. It's not that I don't want to use someone else's terms because sometimes you have to, because that's helps understanding to go. So sometimes you have to. But I think you don't want to be too jargon heady, you know, from both sides. I just don't think I think that can complicate a conversation. I do think there is merit in just speaking plain English sometimes, you know, like you know, um, you know, like for example, CapEx or uh Bita or the terms like that. I mean, I think sometimes you just want to generally talk about if you are helping the profit, if you are um you've got engaged customers or you just gotta admit there's attrition. I just think sometimes simplifying it just makes it real. And I think in the end, we are people, you know, and we can relate to that. So it's a relatability element really more than it is um, you know, not wanting to use someone else's uh business terms.

Michael Hartmann 38:34

Yeah. But I so one of the things that I think is important, and we've I probably talked about this ad nauseum too, is like I do think it's important to understand those people, which requires effort in spending time and probably asking a lot of questions, right? Um I mean, is I know I've learned a lot from doing that, like working with people, and then it helps me when I go to them. I think part of it is it just looks like you're making an effort to understand, right? Agree. Is a big part of building that trust, trusted relationship. I mean, what's your take on that? Like, is it how important? How much time do you spend doing that versus trying to explain what marketing does?

Charral Izhiman 39:15

I don't think I do as much explaining as I do listening. It's just the nature of it. I think the more I understand what somebody understands, let's put it that way, um, the better um the better I am delivering what I need to deliver, what I need to say. Because if you understand where they're starting, what their baseline is, what they're interested in, you kind of find the solution. And I think there's a lot to be said in body language and tone. Obviously, you're both coming together to solve something. So I I mean, I enjoy doing this with the finance, for example, because what they're interested in, their perception of marketing is probably a bit low, I suppose, versus what markets itself. And um, but when they appreciate what you're trying to do, um, and you can see where they're coming from, you find yourself kind of warming to one another and you kind of arrive at this middle ground and you collaborate. So you do that by understanding them because they are dealing with difficult numbers all the time. It's the whole point of their job. Um, and you're coming to the table with uh let's just say with brand customer, lots of feelings and intangible elements for it that way. We know how to quantify them, but that's that engagement with the CFO, for example, wouldn't be the time to go, well, you know, here's the value marketing brings, you know. So it understanding them does help the conversation flow better for sure. I absolutely agree with you.

Michael Hartmann 40:33

Yeah, I mean, I think um I I don't think I think one emphasize your point about listening because I think that is an underrated skill.

Charral Izhiman 40:41

Yeah, it's not easy. It's actually not a skill. It's it's not easy because you want to reply all the time, don't you?

Michael Hartmann 40:50

Yeah, I cannot tell you how many times in my career I've been told you interrupt a lot, Michael. Right? It's like it's partially because I'm not listening. And I and I like actually doing this has really helped me develop better listening skills.

Charral Izhiman 41:03

Yeah, I imagine. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann 41:05

Well, and it's and it and I should know this be like for a short, like short period of my time, I was in sales and I remember going through some training, and and it's it still sits with me when I hear people talk about salespeople, especially marketers who want to discount what they do. And and um when I think about the best salespeople I've worked with, whether they're in my organization or they were selling to me, they're really, really good at asking good questions and listening, actively listening. And when I when I heard that, I was like, God, no, these sales people, all they want to do is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, right? But it's not what they like. The best ones don't do that.

Charral Izhiman 41:43

I'm so agree with you, yeah.

Michael Hartmann 41:46

And I think we can all learn that because it's uh to some degree we're all selling a little bit, right?

Charral Izhiman 41:51

Well, yeah, we really are. I mean, marketing and sales back in the day was all one thing, it just it and it was communication, it was that simple. And if you've got the gift of the gab, especially if you know what you're talking about, it will flow, it's natural. I've I've I've done that myself, and then then the customer's kind of going, you know, I'm getting a bit bored here, you're just talking at me. So, yeah, I think um learning to ask better questions and just to you know deduce what you need to know is is uh obviously the way forward.

Michael Hartmann 42:18

Yeah, so something we've talked about in you and I talked about this, I think, before, and I've talked about it on the show, the the other episodes like how important do you think, or how valuable and important do you think it is for people to spend time um with people in other parts of the organization to understand their roles, like so sales, customer support or success, maybe even finance. What's your take on that?

Charral Izhiman 42:40

I think it should be mandatory that people

Rotation Across Teams And Final Advice

Charral Izhiman 42:42

rotate. I think we would all be so much better at collaborating if we did that. Once you warp in someone else's shoes, you really do go, oh, okay. Uh, when I do this or say that, I'm not really paying attention to this and that on their end. So I do think it helps. And the reason why I appreciate it is because I've done a bit of BD, a bit of sales, a bit of customer service, you know, in my young years. Yeah, and it's changed my perspective. And uh just recently I did it again. I thought, let me step outside and just kind of see things. And I was like, oh, okay. Some of the advice we give doesn't really work, it's not actually gonna work. So let's let's be more practical. And I think it strengthens your relationship uh with the people you're trying to help in your organization. So I I really think it should be mandatory. Uh, it would uh make things work a lot smoother.

Michael Hartmann 43:27

Okay, well, so no, I totally agree. And I think my short time in sales completely 180 degrees changed my view of the role, right? And and I think it's in and I've worked at organizations that it was more or less mandatory to at least spend a day twice a year with somebody in the people in another organization. And I got value out of that, like working with production people. It was like actually producing whatever we were delivering, as well as customers to support sales. Finance. I mean, I think it's it's a it's a really valuable thing. Um, I was actually disappointed when they kind of removed that as a requirement. Um, because it felt like a burden when the people would be spending time with us, right? And I had to like I had to check myself. We go, yeah. So um well, okay, so let's maybe dial this back as kind of wrap up here. So if if you could give a couple of key points to the to our audience who are mostly ops people, um, what are some things that you would recommend that they do to try to help elevate um not only the ops function but marketing in general uh to the rest of their organization?

Charral Izhiman 44:43

I definitely think communication is part of it. I think instead of expecting um anybody you engage with really to understand marketing, don't start there. It would be what I want to really say. I would say understand where they are from and then uh lure them in, attract them, and and use metaphors and ways to explain things. So simplify um your understanding of marketing so that they can meet you there. I do think that's really important. I think it is our job to educate non-marketing professionals, but we're not going to do it by literally teaching them marketing per se. It's more, it's more like find a way for them to appreciate something so they can trust you further. And to the point on rotation, I do think it's really helpful. I think if you were to, you know, to step in someone else's shoes, including finance, you know, that was a difficult one, I imagine. I would probably be terrified in the finance department. But I think it's worth, yeah. I mean, I'm not a numbers person like that. You know, I like my creativity and communication, all those things. But I think if you were to appreciate where they're coming from, you can appreciate the pushback and you could appreciate what they need from you. So it's just been able to do that.

Michael Hartmann 45:50

I mean, I recommend um like in my coaching with new managers who are maybe managing a budget for the first time or have responsibility for pitching new projects or ideas internally to go spend time with your finance partner or your CFO, depending on the organization. Because if you get them on your side, makes like essentially they're the ones who are gonna everyone's gonna look to them and go, like, does this make sense financially before we invest, you know, time and effort and money? And I think it's well worth it. I encourage all the people I coach who are in there, in fact, all the people who have ever worked for me over the last 10, 15 years, 20 years. I feel like learn the basics of finance. Yeah, you will never regret it.

Charral Izhiman 46:34

That's exactly it, yeah.

Michael Hartmann 46:36

So um, it's maybe less obvious. And for those people who are not numbers, I'm more numbers oriented. I was trained as an engineer, so it becomes a little more natural for me. Yeah. Um, and so, but even so, right, there's a different way that they think about numbers than we even do in marketing or in engineering. I mean, it's just a very it's a different mindset. And to your point, right, if you understand how they think about the numbers, it will help you in how you build your case and represent your numbers when you're trying to, especially if you're trying to get investment.

Charral Izhiman 47:09

Absolutely. And I think, you know, uh Michael, I when I uh when I wrote the title for this book, it was different at the beginning, all the way through. And right towards the end, I was like, ah, I feel like I need to change it. And I went back to movement because every all the material was pointing towards that. And I think what's really dawned on me now is you need to be able to move things forward and to actually be able to report impact and progress and all those things. And if you're getting stuck, and I think marketing professionals do or teams get stuck, very often it does happen. It's easy to get stuck in your space. I think you have to ask yourself an honest question: go, am I moving things forward? Am I helping? Am I creating impact? So I think it's really important to always ask yourself that. Um, because it probably means you'll be growing, you'll be out of your comfort zone, and you're gonna go, all right, I'm wasting time here. What could I be really doing that would move the needle or would help somebody? So I do think it having the mentality that movement inspires progress is probably really helpful uh for a creative team.

Michael Hartmann 48:10

Yeah, and I and I think um one of the things I see from a lot of marketers when they get annoyed, like, oh, these people don't understand, is like sometimes the the questions and the push that you the pressure you're feeling from them are actually reasonable kinds of things, right? Because of their perspective, right? Are you moving the business forward? I think that's a great um a great way of thinking about it. Right. And and kind of checking like, am I really doing that? Love it. Anyway. This has been a fun conversation. I've really enjoyed it. Um, I think it's gonna help a lot of people. Um, if folks want to learn more about the book or what you're doing or or to continue the conversation, what's the best way for them to do that with you?

Charral Izhiman 48:52

Um you can go straight to my website, themarketing dashed movement.com. All my details.

Michael Hartmann 48:58

Marketing Dash Movement. Fantastic. Love it. I appreciate it. Again, thank you so much. It's been

Where To Find Sheryl And Closing

Michael Hartmann 49:03

a lot of fun. Thanks for those who are listening or watching, and we appreciate your support. If you have ideas for topics or guests, or you want to be a guest, you can reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me, and we'd be happy to get the ball rolling. Till next time. Bye, everybody.

Charral Izhiman 49:17

Bye bye.