Michael Hartmann

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by MarketingOps.com. I am your host, Michael Hartman. Today we're doing a little something little different. First is that we've got multiple guests, so I'm excited about that. But the conversation that we're going to have started with a simple introduction between Abby Koble and Ashley Langford, who are joining me today and quickly turned into a much bigger discussion about where Marketing Ops is headed. So joining me are Abby, who is Vice President of Global Marketing Operations at Cornerstone OnDemand and Ashley Langford, who is VP of Marketing Ops and AI Technology at her marketing firm, Ashley Langford Marketing.

What started the conversation about AI quickly became something much more interesting. So it's going to be more about what happens to career growth, hiring, confidence, and leadership development when AI starts changing how people learn, work, and get hired. And we're going to just dive right into that. So, Abby, Ashley, thank you and welcome to the show.

Abby Koble

Thank you for having us. So nice to be here.

Ashley Langford

Thank you.

Ashley Langford

Yeah...

Michael Hartmann

I'm excited about this. I know we talked a little bit before, but it sort of all started at this and I know we talked about it before, but Abby, you were the one who really instigated this because you started what kind of started because you reached out after seeing what Ashley was doing on LinkedIn. So what was it about what she was publishing, her content and her perspective that stood out to you that led you to reaching out to her?

Abby Koble

Yeah, you know, I'd just been back from maternity leave for a few weeks and was really trying to dive back into the world and see what people were posting and I just...

LinkedIn kept serving me, Ashley. It was Ashley, Ashley, Ashley, Ashley all the time. And you do a really great job of like having like a brand, it's recognizable before I even see your face. I can see the pink and the sort of the way that stylistically you post things. And I just thought it was really cool that you'd taken the time to build out what was obviously a cadence of these are your thoughts and how you wanted to share them with the world.

And I really like meeting interesting people and having interesting conversations. So I was like, Hey, let's just see what happens. Like, let's send a message and have a chat. And it was great because we got to chat...

...while you were...

Ashley Langford

Yeah.

Abby Koble

On your cruise in Iceland.

Ashley Langford

Yes. Yes. It was great. Like I loved it. It was an awesome conversation. I'm so glad we get to talk again.

Michael Hartmann

That's it.

Abby Koble

Yeah. I think the thing for me is, you know, thinking through how people are searching for jobs, how people are hiring right now. And one of the things I know we had talked about on the hiring side is we'll open these roles. And I'll open a role a year ago and within a few hours I had four hundred applications. So that's a lot. But at the same time, a lot of friends of mine who are out in the world looking for different things are really having a hard time cracking through because there's so much AI that...

...should help get rid of the noise, but instead is actually keeping really good people from even being seen. So it was just, you know, one of your bigger posts was about the ghosting and we just had a really great conversation there.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, I think that's great. And I'm sorry, this is a total aside, but Abby, when you say Ashley, Ashley, Ashley, my head went right to the Brady Bunch and I was like Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. So this is how my brain works and I, you know, so get used to it. I'm... it's random.

So you mentioned the hire the thing and the job search. So Ashley, I think, you know, this is one thing that now that I've also started getting your stuff once we connected, is that you've been pretty public about documenting your job search.

Abby Koble

Where you can.

Abby Koble

Love it.

Michael Hartmann

Like you even had some metrics and things like that. So what like why did you decide to do that? And what has it taught you? What have you learned?

Ashley Langford

Yeah, so honestly I started because I got tired around the silence about layoffs. It's happening to everybody. It's so prevalent out there. And you hear these huge companies laying off thousands and thousands of people. And I was part of a restructure back in February.

And, you know, the old playbook says that you go quiet and act like nothing happened. I didn't want to do that. A layoff is a business decision. It's not a verdict on my career how I did at this job. And I run marketing ops.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

That's just who I am. So I did what I usually do. I built a tracker. I tracked every application, every status, every response and pretty quickly I realized the data itself was more interesting than anything else I could say.

And you know, the thing that actually surprised me is the transparency. You know, converts better than polish. So I posted like the highlight reel, the accomplishments and stuff. But then I posted, I got ghosted after I sent a cold...

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

And it took off. People were putting in their own experiences. You hear these like horror stories of, you know, how many rounds of interviews and then never hearing back.

And it's just horrible. And people want honesty. They don't want a highlight reel right now. And I've got people messaging me about asking how I built my own tracker. They're wanting to build their own tracker.

And, you know, right now it's like the best possible outcome. I'm really enjoying it.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah. No, the ghosting thing is real. I maybe we'll get to that in a little bit. But I'm curious what what like you mentioned you started tracking everything. Like what are what are some of the big metrics that you were tracking? It's funny to even say it that way, but that's what it should be.

And I'm like I should be because I'm like but when I've been in job search, it's like the last thing I'm interested in doing.

Abby Koble

That's amazing.

Ashley Langford

I track everything, like the date I applied, where I heard from it, you know, the actual day, if it's a Wednesday, you know, the status, what round I made it to, who ended the process, you know, what was the reason of the end, how long it took them to respond from the initial, you know, application, the same rigor I bring to like a lead scoring model at a real company and the number is how I change, how I operate.

You know, it's really interesting to see the data. It's like recruiter inboxes convert a lot higher. Cold applications convert around four percent. So cold applying plus your percent is converting.

And it's crazy. So once I saw that number, I stopped grinding on the cold applications. I still do it if a role interests me, but I know it's kind of like an ATS black hole. So I start putting my energy in direct outreach, responding to the ones that...

Michael Hartmann

Makes sense, yeah.

Ashley Langford

...you know, are warm, warm intros. And, you know, the data told me exactly where my hours were wasted.

Michael Hartmann

That's interesting.

Abby Koble

So you went full nerd, is what you're saying. This is my favorite memory.

Ashley Langford

A hundred percent. I love it. And I'm like, I'll even get crazier. First, it was a Google Sheet and then I switched to Notion. So it's like evolving.

And I'm like, I love this thing. It's every iteration gets better and better and less manual for me.

And I'm just like, give me an update. And it just gives me my new dashboard and it's awesome. I love it.

Michael Hartmann

That is awesome. So I'm curious, so the four percent conversion versus whatever ninety percent conversion inbound versus outbound totally makes sense.

Was there anything that surprised you? Like what's the biggest surprise you've seen in the data?

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Below is the transcription of the additional screenshots, in order. I've preserved speaker names and wording as closely as possible. Where the image is cut off or too blurry to read with confidence, I've marked it as [unclear].

Ashley Langford

Well, I mean, it's kind of anecdotal, but it's the ghosting after talking to people, really surprised me. I'll understand ghosting once you put in an application, but once you like actually physically talk to somebody, see someone's face, you know, see the human behind it, and then, you know, follow ups are sent and then you never hear from them again. It's like...

Okay. Well you could have just spent like thirty seconds and been like, sorry, we're interested in something. Or close the loop somehow. I think once you spend that time talking to somebody, like just send a thirty second we don't like you. That's it. That's all you want.

Abby Koble

Yeah. It's a simple I mean it's that's a human moment, right? Of just saying, like, hey, we went on a date, you know, we had a good chat, but mm, not quite. Not quite for me. But that's okay. Like best of luck. That's all you need.

Michael Hartmann

A simple I mean it's that's a human moment, right? Of just saying, like, hey, we went on a date, you know, we had a good chat but not quite not quite for me. But that's a fact like best of luck.

Ashley Langford

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

And I wrote another post too about, you know, I called out some of the companies that were doing it right that actually did follow up correctly. And I'm like, Spotify rejected me, which is fine. But I've been a Spotify customer since twenty fourteen. So it's like I am their customer. Several other companies did it right thing. And I'm like I use Toast to buy my coffee every time I go to this place. So I'm like, I am someone that is a customer. I can be a potential customer in the future. So...

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

I remember things. Like my brain is like an elephant. I never forget things.

So if you treated me a bad way and then you come later trying to sell me something, like, hmm, well, I remember that time in 2026 when I got ghosted by your recruiting team. Like it'll stay with me. And I don't say I wouldn't say I'm like, we'll never forget, but it'll remember it for sure. And that could potentially change the way that I would purchase things.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. I think it's interesting. Definitely seeing ghosting and I think in the other stories for sure and I think especially at late stages, I think it feels especially painful, I guess is the right way to say it. Because it's just you've put a lot into it and to your point, like I would be okay...

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

Hey, it's not a fit and like maybe not even a here's why, but something a little more than just you get the automated, you're no longer a candidate.

Abby Koble

Yeah. You know, it makes me think of and we didn't talk about this before, but the other side of it too is y'all remember sending thank you cards after you did an interview, like actual handwritten I remember once I started a job and afterwards I got a lot of my handwritten thank you notes back because something had gone wrong at the post office and I was like, my god, my thank you card. And then you know it moved to email and all of that. But there's there oftentimes people don't and it's...

Ashley Langford

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

Yes.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Abby Koble

So simple to be interviewing and to say, Michael, thank you so much for taking this time. Ashley, I love that we connected on Iceland and how beautiful the scenery. Even just that one little thing, I think, really makes a big difference. And I don't know if it's I don't think it's generationally, because you know, I'm not a boomer. But I think like there's I doubt that. But there I think there are some people it comes naturally to them and then other people really struggle. And I think that connection is really important.

Michael Hartmann

I'm on the edge, so...

Ashley Langford

Ha ha.

Abby Koble

...too and it's just like kind of dying off a little bit...

Michael Hartmann

Well and I will say on the flip side, so one, I still in the habit of writing at least a thank you email like for everything and keeping people updated who've I've made connections and things like that. And I do when I've been hiring, I've probably judged a little bit when I don't get it's less so. But honestly, on my own side, like I also I'm surprised when I get a...

...response if I send one and I don't send them myself usually.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

And I like now I'm like thinking like maybe I should be doing that too. Like at least acknowledge it. Thanks for the note. Right? It doesn't take more than a couple of seconds.

Abby Koble

Yeah.

Abby Koble

Yeah, I definitely always try to follow up. I do remember once having an interview with someone who I really loved and they would have been a phenomenal fit, but it wasn't quite right. Like there was one other candidate.

And I remember they had asked for feedback, and I was like, I really, I just wanna I wanna tell this person everything that I think. And I sent them back, here's everything that's amazing, here's everything that's like maybe slightly different than what we need. And we ended up like having a really great connection and we still enjoy one other's company. We see each other at networking events, like they're gonna be...

...in the area a lot more and it was actually kind of nice because I think often people are like, please give me feedback. Hopefully you tell me that I'm perfect. And that's that's okay. Like we're not we're not perfect. I'm sure after this, like Michael, you could be like, next time you do a podcast, maybe don't touch your hair so much or whatever it is that I'm doing, but it was really cool to be able to respond and again just be like you're a human, I'm a human. Maybe this will help.

And then they actually got their next job, which was not because of me at all, but it was just kind of nice to have that follow through.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

Well, it's a small world. Like mops is such a small world and there's so many crazy weird connections. It's like when you meet someone, you're like, I see that you're connected to this person. How do you know them? I worked with them here. And it's like, wow, we are such a small, large community and we're all connected.

And, you know, if you have a bad rep, eventually, you know, it's gonna get around and people are gonna be like, you know, Abby is that...

...one that you just don't want to work for or something like that. And you don't want that.

Abby Koble

Exactly.

Michael Hartmann

Well, I'll do so two thoughts. I agree with you because I think like immediately in my head I'm thinking of contrasting ones. Like one with somebody who I had a lot of respect for in the com and went through a process and it probably wasn't the right fit, totally fine, but didn't take the time like did not that person didn't talk to conversations plus interviews, that person didn't personally reach out.

On the flip side, a CMO that I admire a lot that I interviewed with called me and told me personally, I still admire he's been a guest on since so like you could probably go through the list of guests and maybe figure out who it is. But I think it does matter. But I do feel like I think this is...

This is getting very meta here, but like I there's this study that I had heard about that aggregated this stuff from other studies that talked about how people today, and I think it was over a 10 year period, like the just the...

...volume of spoken words speaking to people that we do has dropped like 30 percent.

Like and I wonder if part of this is just people are no longer... I think there's two parts. One, like in general, I'm not sure well people connect in you know like when it's something where there's something at stake.

And second, I don't know that people are taught how to have those challenging conversations because it's uncomfortable.

Abby Koble

Yeah. Absolutely. And most people are more comfortable being comfortable. And often won't and you know, make a change until it's too painful to not. So it's just very human.

Ashley Langford

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

So...

Michael Hartmann

You avoid it avoid it.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Well and on the side of being the hirer, right, to your point about reputation, right? Generally speaking, right, most people aren't gonna be calling ace out and maybe reputation gets around a little bit.

But there's not a whole lot of downside to just saying, I'm not gonna say anything, right? I'm just gonna let the...

Ashley Langford

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

Yeah, like I would rather you not tell me anything but still get the like, sorry, we don't want you. You know, like I don't need details sometimes. I mean, is it nice? Yeah, but I still think closing that gap of like great, great talking to you, we're moving on with somebody else. Like that's all you have to put. And I'm good.

Abby Koble

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. And by the way, the reputations thing goes both ways too. So I actually in the last what's it's the last six months, had someone reach out to me who I kinda loosely know. We're connected on LinkedIn. It's like, hey, my son's interested in this job, it's at this company, I see that you know so and so. And it was somebody I had recently just talked to, and would you, you know, would you help him get in the door? Like, fine, sure. Like, no problems. Like...

Ashley Langford

Hundred percent.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

And I was clear, like I don't know, I don't know him, hadn't worked with him, right? I was kind of just out of college kind of person and so and we went through a couple of rounds. And then that person that I referred who was the hiring person who had referred the person to sent me full cold blind copied me on a response to an email to the candidate because the candidate had kind of...

...went a little too far, right? To the point where I'm like, if I was in your shoes, like yeah, Abby's face said it all. Yeah. I was like, yeah, I was like, my gosh. Like yeah, I was like to the hiring, I was like, thanks for sharing, and you handled that way better than I would.

Abby Koble

[laughs]

Ashley Langford

Four.

Ashley Langford

Did they think that they were automatically going to get the job because you put in a referral or interesting...

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

I don't know, right?

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Kinda crazy, right? And not to bash on salespeople, but the parent father was a salesperson, so like...

Ashley Langford

There you go. That explains it all.

No, we love our salespeople. We just have a, you know, a love hate relationship with them. And they have a love hate relationship with us.

Michael Hartmann

No, I don't.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Absolutely. Yeah. No, I'm having been in sales for even a little bit of my career, I'm like, okay, I think I try to avoid that.

Ashley Langford

Sales is hard. Like it's difficult. And especially right now, you're dealing with a bunch of stuff and people being laid off and cold calling and who knows who's gonna answer if they're even still at that company. And I don't even wanna know what's on the other line.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

And cold calling is no picnic. Like if you've never done it and been hung up on or were I've never been cursed out, but I've been hung up on. So yeah.

Ashley Langford

Brutal.

Ashley Langford

I was cursed out at my first job.

Ashley Langford

Cold calling and it was bad. It was so bad. I was like, my gosh, people are so mean.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, it's pretty awful. Yeah. All right. So Abby, like you mentioned this too, like you had a job opening what you said like a year ago, and I've seen this on the same side, like you see a job that's posted and within twenty four hours you know, LinkedIn says there's thousands of people who've clicked through the apply. Like what do you think like put it on the hiring side, like what what do you think that's doing?

Abby Koble

People are so beautiful.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Abby Koble

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

...to the hiring process now too...

Abby Koble

It's tricky. I think there are a couple of things in the last fifteen years, the last six in particular, that have been great.

So like that diversity of location has been wonderful. I have consistently had people in seven or eight countries and ten time zones and these are the most brilliant people literally in the world that I could be working with, which is wonderful. I'm very, very lucky.

The other thing, and we were just talking about this, like you said, Ashley, like it's a very small world and I'm lucky enough to have a really big network. But when I'm...

Michael Hartmann

Could not agree more.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Abby Koble

...posting a job, a lot of people that I've worked with in the past will come out.

And I don't want to be that person who is ghosting or, you know, not following up with people. And I want to be really clear about the intention.

But there are some jobs, especially in ops, especially at a director or above title, where we all know in any industry it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. There are very few.

I realize this, there are very few VP level marketing ops roles globally.

And it's the same thing for the director levels. So there are these brilliant people.

And I probably I think it was actually 400 applications in the first couple of hours, like boom, right there.

And some of them are good. And then some of them it was a spray and pray.

And when we're talking about like sellers, like I hate a spray and pray approach.

It is the bottom tier.

Like just try and get something out the door and hope that it catches.

Michael Hartmann

Same thing for the director that was brilliant.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Abby Koble

So there were some people who were coming through and had just copy paste, copy, paste, copy, paste.

But it's tough because the ATS and everything else it just all looks the same.

So I'll scan in the same way.

And I try to give as much grace as possible to the recruitment teams because they've all been gutted as well at every company and every industry.

And because there's this, and we were talking about this before, this is a little spicy, but I feel like we're just cresting the stupidity curve in terms of AI.

Like, well, I can take over everything and do all of our jobs.

And now maybe we'll come down the other side and start to think strategically about how we use AI as a force multiplier instead of a failing factor or a way to reduce jobs.

So I try and give grace, but there's there are only so many even scans that a human being can do of 400 applications to be able to find...

Michael Hartmann

Ha ha ha

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Abby Koble

…the twenty that you want to move forward. And a lot of people have the exact same experience. So how do you, and it really does come back a lot to network. It comes back to what Ashley is saying. If someone has reached out to me and says, I see that you opened this thing, if you're willing to have coffee, of course I'm going to see that more than it just being in a pile.

It's just, it's just the volume game is loud and aggressive right now. It was those two words that I'll use.

Ashley Langford

Yes.

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

Yes.

Michael Hartmann

Well I think to your point about there the recruiters, talent acquisition, whatever, right? I think I've always had to play a much heavier role. I think they're used to and they're doing like, IT or finance or something like that, where there's, yeah, it's fairly well understood like...

...something like that, where there's, yeah, it's fairly well understood, like not only what the roles or the functions do, but also like what different levels of responsibility, like titles.

And I think there's less of that in marketing in general and specifically in ops. So I think it's become, it becomes a challenge. And now if you got a recruiter who's having to support multiple functions, right, it's not and the volume is what it is. I'm with you, right? They deserve some grace too. Right. Are there's ones that are better or worse? Absolutely. But like that's a challenge for sure.

Ashley Langford

But I think, you know, when a layoff happens, they get gutted first because they're like, we're not gonna be hiring anybody. So let's just gut the TA team and it's bad because then you have if you are hiring for a role, you have one person taking care of the whole company and it's hard for them. So yeah, I mean, it's bad on all levels. Like it's not fun for anybody.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. So it brings me to the whole ghosting thing again. Like so I think there might are it feels like and I think we talked about this a little bit...

...there's like levels of ghosting, right?

There's like the automated ATS ghosting, there's the recruiter got ten acquisition person ghosting, and then there's like the hiring team ghosting.

And it feels like there to me the stakes are higher as you go through that. And for at least for the person who's going through the process.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Ashley Langford

Yes. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

And I'd have I I'm a lot more comfortable with the I don't hear anything from the town acquisition system, ATS, you know, and maybe I don't hear again from the recruiter, although I think little less but when you get into the like the hiring team, that's really where I think that's the problem.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm. I agree. I one hundred percent agree. Like it definitely gets, you know, bigger with more the further you go.

And, you know, in that article I wrote, there were so many comments of how many rounds people went through and then never hearing.

Or, you know, they would hear months later that the role was closed and they would've got something automatic.

And it's like, you spent hours of time not only interviewing, but prepping.

Just a simple email could have just closed that door.

And you know, it's interesting. And you know, I had I think the one thing that started the conversation for me was it was right after my layoff.

There was this random recruiter that reached out to me for a director of marketing ops role and the salary was so low.

Like it was very, very low.

And I was like, you know, this is what I'm usually seeing in the market.

You know, she was great. She was like, let me come back and I'll come back and see if I can get in a little higher.

She got into the preferred range.

And she was like, great, let's schedule a call.

So she scheduled a call for like that Friday.

And we had it on our calendar, never called me.

I sent a follow-up, just checking in.

Nothing.

And I never heard from her since.

And I was like, why why?

You know, like that was the one that prompted me to write it.

I was like, but why?

Why did you go through all that the motions to then just go bye and then never come back?

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, it's bad.

Abby Koble

It's interesting, like...  

Abby Koble

...the more we talk about this, I keep thinking about like what one philosophically what we owe to one another, right?

But also responsibility within a role.

And this is gonna be a little bit of a stretch, so like stick with me.

I'm a huge nerd for budget.

And I think that if a company has said to you, you have fifteen dollars that you're responsible on spending, I don't care if it's only fifteen dollars.

I'm gonna know exactly what you've done.

And I keep thinking about...

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Abby Koble

The different mindsets that people have for this responsibility that you can gain as you move up in a role.

And it's like, okay, now I'm now gonna have a $15 budget.

Now I'm gonna have a $30 budget.

Now I'm gonna have a million dollar budget.

And some little things like not following back up on something like that, or spending a thing without following the process and like playing a little bit fast and loose, because this also comes back to like a brand impact on the company.

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Ashley Langford

Yes.

Abby Koble

...you could even have like discrimination in some cases if it's taken in the wrong way.

And then there are like broad impacts of like these very seemingly small, small, small, and I'm a big deal.

I don't need to follow up.

I just I'm too busy today.

I don't want to follow up.

And then I think about it and I'm like, okay, what if that person just casually spent fifteen grand of only let's call it a small, like a hundred thousand dollar budget?

That's a huge portion.

I don't know, I just I think about like...

How much are we giving to these companies in terms of like respect and responsibility for each role?

Because I think it's just it's a broader issue.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

So are...

Michael Hartmann

...you talking about being in a hiring position and you've got a budget for it and then you don't hire for it?

And so...

No.

Okay.

Abby Koble

No, I was literally...

Abby Koble

...just meant budget in general.

Like you're gonna go spend money on content syndication or an event or whatever it is and just playing a little bit fast and loose there.

And I think it's for me for me the like strategy of really wanting to make sure you're following back up with people and then also spending the money appropriate like I think it all just like ties together.

It might be too far of a stretch, but it's where my brain looks.

Michael Hartmann

[laughs]

Michael Hartmann

No, it's I was go ahead.

Go ahead, Ashley.

Ashley Langford

No, I know what you mean.

Yeah.

Like I've seen it too of where some companies, you know, when they have a budget, they just blow it all.

And then, you know, people are like, okay, but what do we get from this million dollars you just spent?

And, you know, I've come in after those people and then the budget gets so tightened and every single spend is scrutinized to no end.

And it's like, you want this?

Well, you know, our contract cuts can't change, but we need we need more, you know.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

...size in our database.

So it has to.

And it's like, well, we don't have any more money because the previous regime, they just blew it on all this stuff.

And it's like, it's interesting walking into that afterwards.

And it's like they just play fast and loose.

And now we're getting the we're seeing the not the benefits, but like the not anti benefits, the results of it.

And it's not good.

It's interesting.

But if they're doing that with that budget, what else are they doing with that would be my question.

Michael Hartmann

Okay. I see.

Yeah.

No, so what it was what was making me think of Abby and the reason I asked the question is because one of my first, well, actually it was my first leadership role.

I had to open headcount and my boss came to me because I was being pretty particular about who I was gonna hire.

Like I and it was taking me a long time.

It was a really big company.

And he basically said like if you don't hire somebody, the headcount's gonna go away because they're gonna assume you can't you don't need it, right?

And so I hired people to really bad decisions, so much so that I almost never wanted to be in a leadership role again.

Like it was that bad.

Yeah.

Abby Koble

[laughs]

Abby Koble

Because you felt the pressure to we've got to get it in or...

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, so I compromised to get the like to not lose the budget.

Yeah, it wasn't offended her.

Abby Koble

Yeah, that's a tough one.

That's a tough one.

Ashley Langford

I hate that spend it or lose it because it makes you...

Ashley Langford

...want to spend it, but then if it's not the right time, sometimes it's just not the right time to hire somebody, or it might not be the right time to buy the piece of technology, but it's if you're forced to do it or you can't get it again next year.

It's like, is that really even I don't want to say fair, but the right thing to do?

Abby Koble

Well, it's interesting too because there's a lot of impact on cash flow, right? Depending on, you know, how you're viewed or what your goals are.

And so maybe you're going through a layoff, but then that's gonna free up other budget.

And every month that you don't hire someone is actually more money in the coffer.

So I'll do find that like that side of finance very interesting and how to balance that, especially if you're owned by PE or you're VC backed or something like that science.

I feel like this is a whole other conversation.

I didn't mean to come completely off...

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

Right.

Michael Hartmann

No no no.

Michael Hartmann

No. No, I mean it's so it's fun.

I mean, I'll say one more thing and then maybe move on because you said something earlier, Abby.

I wanted to dive into a little bit.

But like this like in my coaching with especially people are in their early stages of doing leadership or if they have a budget, like they just knowing how this stuff works is not something I think a lot of people are taught.

And I mean I think I think it's a super important skill.

I always tell people like I'm not creative in the way you think of me just because I'm in marketing.

Like I don't I'm not a graphic designer.

Like that's not it.

But if you could give me a limited set of resources and budget and like understand like I'm really good about going like what's where are the tradeoffs to balance that.

Do you think our audience will know who MacGyver is?

Is that is that a...

Abby Koble

It's my favorite stuff.

It's like being a MacGyver.

Ashley Langford

Yes.

Abby Koble

Hopefully it's steeped enough in culture.

I don't know.

Ashley Langford

I know.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

But I mean they did a reboot of MacGyver, but I never watched it because he was not our MacGyver.

Michael Hartmann

[laughs]

Abby Koble

I also I don't have cable anymore, so I don't I don't think I guess it's probably on the loo or something, but...

Michael Hartmann

I have...

I haven't.

I'm sure it's out there still.

In fact I think I had started watching it one time with my kids years ago and it just didn't really they they weren't interested and I didn't follow up.

It's funny so again...

...total aside, but like in the more recent episode with Mike and Nomi and Mike used the term jump the shark and I actually know what that references to.

If you guys know what that's from?

Happy Days.

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

Happy Days.

Yes.

Because they literally jumped a shark.

Abby Koble

You got me on that one.

Ashley Langford

In one of the episodes.

So then it was like so when the season or when the show jumps a shark, you know it's gone overdone, like it's done.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's it was literally an episode where Fonzie from Happy Days jumped shark.

So funny.

Okay.

So the thing you said, Abby, that was interesting is you said the stupidity curve of AI.

So what what I'm trying to remember what what did you mean by what do you mean by that and you know the idea of that versus something else?

Abby Koble

That's awesome.

Ashley Langford

Yeah.

Abby Koble

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so...

I think it's like any new technology.

There is an initial excitement.

My God, this is gonna change the world.

Wow, this is incredible.

My God, we can get rid of all these jobs.

No way, no way.

And then you kind of level out.

And I was thinking about like...

When I was in business school, one of the strategy classes that we took, I took an elective and it was this brilliant professor from Oregon and he had come out to Syracuse and did like an intensive for us and it was environment impacts and strategy or something like that.

And I remember thinking, I'm gonna go into this class and we're just gonna say, okay, well, obviously recycle paper and don't use too much water.

Yeah, like basic things like that.

But the thing that he said that was so interesting is...

...ruin the world.

But also if you need to run the business, there are trade-offs.

And that one thing really changed the way that I think about everything.

And it's with AI, we should be running fast.

We should be pushing the envelope.

We should be trying and failing and doing it all fast.

But we should be doing it intelligently.

And I think right now and the way that I think about the stupidity curve and my like tongue-in-cheek way of explaining it is...

It's so exciting right now.

And there are people who are able to who are not engineers, who don't know how to code, who are creating apps, and it's opened like a whole new dimension in the way of like creativity and thought.

And like just like you said, Michael, like I might be good at arts and crafts, but I'm not like that kind of a creative person.

I want the duct tape and the bubble gum and I'll build you an airplane.

Right now it is still so much like the PE, the VC, all of these like boards are saying...

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

...every time I ask it for something, it's like, that's I would've asked it in a different way.

But so it's like, yeah, right?

It's it well, I didn't want it to be sycophantic anymore.

But like I think we're...

Michael Hartmann

How nice, right?

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Abby Koble

At the edge of this curve where people are like, okay, this is very cool.

We can do all of this amazing work, but like, what do we really need to do to operate the business in a better, more effective way?

Not of not just efficient, but effective.

Because that's also a lot of we can get rid of this job and this job and this job and this job.

I'm like, okay, but why don't we equip these people better?

Who we already have and then have a much higher output?

So I guess that's kind of that's sort of like the my my thesis.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Abby Koble

Is that we're right at the top of the curve.

We're still gonna have some stupid decisions, but then we're gonna come down the other side and it's gonna become more of like a norm in what we use and not as like silver bullet.

Ashley Langford

Yeah.

Like I can run like build things super quick, super fast, and it's awesome.

But what it can't tell you if the workflow is actually right for the funnel, the stack, the buyers, you need that judgment still.

And you know, it has to be earned through living in it.

So you get people who look, you know, fast and confident because they're output went up, but underneath it really never caught up or it's not the right thing for it.

Abby Koble

Exactly.

Did they ask that follow up question?

Is anyone QA'ing this work?

Because you could put a campaign out ninety times faster.

Is it going to the right people?

Are there typos?

Does it sound weird?

Did the links work?

It you know, and you can iterate all of this stuff, but there's a pretty steep curve.

You know, in like if like efficiency and the effect.

I just...

Ashley Langford

Right.

Ashley Langford

Right.

Abby Koble

I feel really strongly that it's a powerful tool, but if we're not putting a lot of thought into it and acting like, well, it's just a calculator, it's always gonna give me the right answer, doomed to fail.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

No. Like...

Ashley Langford

It lies too.

Ashley Langford

...you all the time. Like I'm like, are you sure about that? And it's like, let me check. Actually, no, that's wrong. I'm like, I knew it knew it was wrong.

Like, it's interesting with some of the results you get because it hallucinates. And if you've have people that aren't either paying attention or they're just not understanding the business, they could put in some stuff that just isn't right.

Like I had a friend that used it to...

...build her monthly specials because she doesn't have a graphic designer because she's a small business.

And she put in all the stuff and she said something was $200, but it put it on this graphic as $150.

And you know, if she didn't check it, you know, she was like, why did it do that?

And I was like, I don't know.

So she went in and said, like, I actually the special is $200.

And it was like, yeah, you're right. Let me change that.

And it's like, right, right.

Michael Hartmann

Ha.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, I was right. Yeah.

Abby Koble

So but how...

Abby Koble

...do we train people for this? Because you kind of have to mess it up to realize what can go wrong. How do you do that?

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, so I think...

Ashley Langford

I think that's like...

Ashley Langford

...the next generation.

Like I think they're if they're not really in the trenches like we have been, I don't want to say like, the new people aren't good enough.

But I mean we spent hours going through log data, looking at list uploads, what's failing, looking at activity logs and Marketo.

I can go and diagnose something very quickly.

But if they don't have that experience and all they can do is ask Claude or ask ChatGPT to do it...

...you know, they and they can't figure out the problem, that's the issue.

Like you need to be able to dig and use your brain and not always rely on AI.

AI is a super important tool, but it shouldn't be the main thing that you've replaced your brain with.

Like it needs to be an assistant.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. No, I think outsourcing cognitive stuff is a really dangerous thing.

And so it's interesting.

This is...

I have kids who are in high school, college age, and this is like a conversation we have regularly.

And my oldest who he prefers to read and stuff and he's working and he actually really tries to avoid using LLMs and I think almost to the point where he's like...

...I think he'll use it for stuff, not for school though, generally speaking.

I mean, he's like, I'm gonna be able to stand out, right?

I do think there's something about these at all just use it to LLMs in this case, right?

It's that...

...and I've said that I've I'm gonna don't know who said this, but the idea that if you're a top performer in whatever it is and you start using LLMs, right, the likelihood that it's gonna elevate you unless you're super really paying attention to it is pretty low.

Like it's more likely to bring your output down.

Abby Koble

Mm.

Michael Hartmann

...to...

Ashley Langford

So...

Michael Hartmann

...the...

Michael Hartmann

...to the average.

And if but if you're not as good, right, it's likely to bring it up, right?

Because it's like it converges to an average in general, right?

And I just think what what's interesting to me is all the stuff you talked about is like building an...

...like you we learned did all this stuff and it built intuition.

So when we see a problem and it looks like this, like, it's probably something in here, right?

You kind of go like, this is where the problem is.

What I worry about is not only losing that, right?

Because they're not going through the thinking process.

But the other part is...

...I think and we had this conversation with Naomi Mike and me in the last episode where we talked about like if what if I think Naomi said like one of the different shaders is gonna be like being able to communicate better and do this right in like human things.

And my concern, like I mentioned, right, this...

...lack of speaking.

I think we are all, you know, other people say like we're we're more connected now, but not really connected, right?

Like the amount of anxiety and suicide among young people and all these kinds of things that are like signs that that's not there.

That's what worries me too, is like we don't know that we've got a generation or two of people who have learned some of those skills that I think will be really beneficial to use AI as a force multiplier to use your term, Abby, right?

And that's like that's what I am like.

Like how do we do we go from that and recognize that that's the case to something where we can get a benefit out of it the way we really need to?

Abby Koble

One thing I've been thinking about, and I would I'd really love both of your opinions.

So the way I've always managed my teams in terms of like a growth and a path is you go from like a task master to a project manager to a strategic thinker to a consultant.

Like that's always I know I do a lot of this.

I do a lot of hand gestures.

I always up and to the right.

And what I've been thinking about now is like...

I love an analogy.

And if the end goal is to be the coach, like the AI coach.

Sometimes we're gonna have to figure out ways to start as like the locker room attendant, right?

Like how do you know where everything goes?

How are you going in and validating?

And so what I've been thinking through is if the goal is to be the orchestrator, the engineer, if you will, because I think that's a phrase a lot of people are using, but that coach that I'm thinking of to walk in those shoes, I think it's let's build a thing.

And now I want you to go through every step and check in and then come back to me with as a human, like...

...did this link go to the right thing?

Does it feel like a natural next step?

I think one of the first things when AI was generating images, it couldn't do hands, which is really fascinating because hands are the most difficult thing for artists to master.

There's whatever dimension about it is really, really difficult.

So like how do you teach them?

Ashley Langford

Yes.

Michael Hartmann

Mm.

Abby Koble

...how to build or draw or whatever hands and like doing the cleanup and seeing, by the way, you know, we've talked about this before.

I did a list cleanup and the postal codes got messed up because it was a zero at the beginning.

And if you have a zero at the beginning and except and it's like you don't know that until you've uploaded a list of 10,000 people with the wrong postal code.

And then you have to tell your boss about it when you're twenty three and you're like, my God, I'm gonna get fired.

And no, I don't think we should haze anybody, but I think being able to walk through the steps of like, what do I want my AI to be?

Because now you're starting to think like, what are the questions I'm going to be asking for when I become the coach?

Ashley Langford

It's a lot of trial knowledge that I think we all learned because we were in the trenches.

And if you're not in the trenches, you're not gonna learn it.

Because there's just so many weird things that I just know because I've made the mistake.

And I think it's it's so important to be able to make a mistake.

You need to be able to make mistakes, but you need to quickly recover from them and admit your mistake.

Tell someone if you know, like...

Abby Koble

Yes. My God.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Abby Koble

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

That's huge.

Tell someone you made a mistake because it's okay.

It's all fixable.

We've all did, you know, we've all done some weird stuff before.

You know, I've deleted some things I shouldn't have deleted, but you could all get it back.

But if the sooner you tell someone, the sooner we can get it fixed.

But just learn.

Abby Koble

That story.

Abby Koble

You you're just making me think like the most important thing for me when hiring anybody is proactivity.

And that's probably why when people reach out on LinkedIn it sticks for me, but it's it's that.

Like it's fine if things go wrong.

But please tell me and let's figure it out together.

If you see a thing that's broken, raise the flag.

Don't just sit there and hope that somebody else notices and picks it up.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

I don't love surprises, but I'd rather know them sooner than later.

Abby Koble

Yes, I love that.

I'm gonna I'm gonna use that.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

Go for it.

I'm sure somebody else has said something like that.

Well, and I think I think and I think a lot of people in this space in particular get...

...caught up in there's a right way and a wrong way to do things.

And like I'm a big you use the word trade off, Abby, and I'm like, you know, I've like similar to you, right?

I had some I saw a clip of Thomas Sowell, economist, and he talked about like there's no right answers, there are trade-offs.

And you have to choose between the trade-offs, right?

And that has stuck with me everywhere.

I think I was doing it anyway, partially because of my background and training.

But it was like it's now very much in the forefront of my mind when I'm trying to make a tough decision.

And if it's just like I think that is what those are the kinds of skills I think we lose.

Because if you go start outsourcing this thought process and evaluating the trade-offs with something like an LLM, like you're gonna...

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

I think that's the risk that we run into is that we lose that part of our humanity.

But I love music and I love understanding how music is produced.

And so there's this guy, Rick Beato, YouTube YouTuber that I follow, and he has kids who are probably now early teenage years and he has talked about this multiple...

Ashley Langford

Anyway.

Michael Hartmann

Sometimes like if he plays an AI because AI songs were big for a while and if they're still big.

And some of are catchy, right?

And I sometimes I can't tell, but he's like every time he's played one for his kids, like, that's AI.

Like they immediately know about it they know, right?

Intuitively.

Ashley Langford

Yeah.

Abby Koble

It's fascinating.

I can I get I feel like I can read it pretty quickly in like the cadence, often the first short sentence with the period.

But the music thing, I always joke like Abby doesn't music.

I love music.

I just I would never just sit down and like listen to an album.

So I had not even any idea that this was happening.

So now I have a whole new thing I'm gonna research as soon as we're done.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well...

Ashley Langford

And you could do your own...

Michael Hartmann

...nobody listens to albums anymore.

Ashley Langford

Yeah, you could do your own AI songs.

I did several about my dogs and my husband.

To me, I was just entertained.

Like I didn't like publish them anywhere.

I'm like, my gosh, this is funny.

But it's it was fascinating when I saw it.

Someone did something about how they couldn't turn in the paper on time, so they wrote a song and I saw it on TikTok and then I'm like, I wanna try this.

And it was it was really it was really neat.

Because you could pick the style, you could pick anything and completely customize it.

It was awesome.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

It's crazy.

I still remember like one of my first experiments with ChatGPT and why initially it was like, not a big deal.

It's like it was like for whatever reason I decided I was gonna have ChatGPT.

I didn't write songs, but like do lyrics for a song.

And I did one, I think I did one about like do something in the style of the Beastie Boys about marketing ops, and I was cracking myself up.

It's probably still in my history.

I'm not...

Abby Koble

Please send that.

Please send that one.

I need to see that one.

Ashley Langford

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

...been having to clear stuff out, but I think that one's still there somewhere buried.

So no, I do not told you I'll that is not my gift.

That is not my gift.

I'll learn to get over the anxiety and fear of doing that with my kids at home, but not in public.

Sorry.

Although I will do karaoke.

Ashley Langford

Please perform it as well.

That could be the intro.

Abby Koble

[laughs]

Abby Koble

No no sir.

Mm mm.

Not for me.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

So...

Ashley Langford

Do it in a group.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

And that is it.

But I will not be up there by myself doing it.

That's absolutely not.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

I mean I'm still can't carry like I have no like I can't carry a tune and I can't but I can I'll sing along with karaoke because I love music and I would like some certain songs I'm like, gotta sing along with this anyway.

Right?

So like we could just I'm gonna plant this in your head, like just go listen to Sweet Caroline and you can thank me later.

Ashley Langford

Hundred percent.

Ashley Langford

And then bum bum bum is just in my head right now.

So thank you.

Michael Hartmann

See, I told you.

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

You're welcome.

Well you guys, your day is getting close to being over.

You're on the East Coast.

It's like what else do you have to do, right?

So...

Abby Koble

Exactly.

Nothing.

Michael Hartmann

[laughs]

Michael Hartmann

So I'm just so we've talked a whole lot about a lot of different things here.

Like where do you like where do you think all this stuff, you know, there's more of this move to, you know, work, you know, moving to office, although I read a saw an article that says actually that's not as big like there's more talk about it than there's actual happening.

And AI, like how do you think that's gonna affect who we hire, who we hire, who we promote, right?

Where where do we do the work from?

Ashley Langford

I think it cuts down on your your available people because if you're only hiring in San Francisco, that's the trend I'm seeing is a lot of these San Francisco companies only are now looking for either hybrid or full in office.

They're missing out on so much talent that's elsewhere in the...

...country.

And I think it opened up so much in COVID where so many more companies were open to hiring from anywhere.

They didn't care.

Or people moved.

They're like, we're sick of this.

Let's go build a farm and have a bunch of animals.

And it just shows you that you can get the job done anywhere.

And I've always been a proponent of remote work.

My dad was in sales and he worked remotely before it was called like remote work in like the 80s, 90s and 2000s when I was growing up.

And he had a home office and did it all.

And I saw it growing up and I knew it could be done if you had the personality for it and the sense because there are some people that, you know, could never work remotely because they're gonna be the ones that are gonna be just, you know, not working.

But a lot of people need that flexibility, you know, just to be at home and be in your own environment.

I wanna be around my animals and I wanna be in comfortable clothes.

I don't want to commute to Atlanta.

Because it's a soul sucker to commute an hour and a half each way.

I will tell people, I will hop on a plane, but I will not drive in a car to go see you.

Like...

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Abby Koble

Yeah.

No, for sure. I mean, my husband years ago worked on a base. He runs a small cybersecurity cybersecurity agency and they were working with the government and so he had to be inside of a secure building and he would go, it would be the winter in New England and he would leave the house and it was dark, and then he would leave to come home and it was still dark and like didn't see the sun.

And for me it's like I think there are some roles that are very beneficial to have in person.

A BDR function, for example, I think is a great job to have in person. You can walk around, hear different calls, jump in. It's a little bit that connection is more important.

Now I think being in person is really important. I like what you said, Ashley, like I'll get on an airplane for sure.

But for me, I've been remote for over a decade. And I think having that again, that diversity of thought and being able to hire anywhere, I will always be loud about.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Abby Koble

...my opinion on wanting to hire the right person for the role and not just because somebody happens to be in a specific area.

I think some of it also is driven by, we signed a 10 year lease and we need butts in seats.

Like I get it.

Again, like that's the strategy and there's a cost there.

But for the most part I feel very strongly that if someone's not doing your job, their job you're gonna know anyway.

If they're in the...

Ashley Langford

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

Right. You're gonna know.

Ashley Langford

...in person or remote.

Like we've all seen it.

We've all seen those people.

I mean, I think one of the last jobs I had in person was there was this new marketing person that just was never around, never doing her stuff and it was very apparent.

She didn't last very long, but it was like it's very apparent she was not working.

Abby Koble

Exactly. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Well you should. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Click the paycheck.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I also in addition to I think the role, I think there's an industry one too.

Like I think there's some like what's the norm in the industry.

So for example, I've worked in the trade show and eventually industry.

Like it makes sense for them to want to do that because that's what they're promoting, right?

They want people to come to events, right?

And meet in person.

So it totally makes sense.

But I'm maybe the outlier.

Like I am a total like if we did Myers Briggs, I like the I'm an Heavy E, right?

Like extroversion.

Like I miss being around people.

I don't miss the commute though.

That's the part I do.

Ashley Langford

Yes.

Ashley Langford

Yeah. That's where I am.

I love people.

I just don't wanna drive to see you.

Like...

Abby Koble

Well so can I ask that Michael...

Abby Koble

But for either of you, does the like the onslaught of Zoom calls and Teams calls, does that not itch that for you?

Cause I'm on like fifteen to...

...fifteen back to backs most days, so I'm getting a lot of people time.

Michael Hartmann

Ashley, you go first, so I have a strong opinion about this, so...

Ashley Langford

I think it depends.

I think it depends on if it's a necessary call, if it's like a team catch up where no one shares their camera.

I mean, there's some companies where I were was in where it's like you show your face no matter what.

And then other companies like everyone was off camera.

And to me it was so jarring to not see people's faces.

And it just I'm like, is anyone paying attention?

Like is anyone alive?

Like I did I didn't know if people were there.

And it was really weird to me.

But I think you still need that one on one time with people.

And I think the best connection is still with somebody over food, over drinks, over, you know, having a meal together.

That's no matter what is the best connection that you make.

And that's the one thing I miss is sharing a meal with someone and learning more about them personally.

And then that always builds back into professionally and and how you can get the job done and work better with them.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, so I think my biggest thing.

So when I was working at Texas Instruments years ago and we had a facility in Tucson.

I'm in Dallas and I would go out there regularly.

And because I was like I was the kind of person when I have a budget, I'm like I want to make sure I'm getting the like trying to be highly efficient, like make sure I've got all my time blocked out and schedule it.

And at some point what I realized is like all were the things that were in between all that.

Right.

So the thing about a lot of these Zoom calls and Teams calls is like they're they can be efficient.

But it kind of like doing everything just for efficiency's sake.

I know you like you're a fan of this Abby like I think is actually a little bit of a mistake.

Cause there's this like connective tissue that requires down and it doesn't necessarily even have to be over meal, although I'm not like I'm a meal, a drink, whatever, coffee.

But just like...

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

...bumping into somebody and having a conversation.

You can kind of do that on a Teams or Slack or whatever, but it's it just doesn't it doesn't feel the same.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

And I think that's my biggest thing about it.

So am I comfortable like like you, I've had international teams, Abby, right?

And I've figured out how to make that work, but you have to put in the work to make it work.

Yeah.

Cause like I'm a big big believer in like you've got I want teams who are comfortable being willing to speak up and tell me hard stuff, like to not hide stuff or whatever.

And it requires building a level of trust and that...

Abby Koble

And it's a lot of work.

And I...

Michael Hartmann

...requires an investment in time.

Abby Koble

Agreed.

Totally agreed.

And I think that investment in time also, the intention needs to be positive as well.

I hate the word authentic because it's so overused, but like the authenticity or the being genuine, I think, is the differentiator there.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Ashley Langford

Yes.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Well, like when I and so if I put this in leadership context, like when I do again with the coaching for somebody who and I this is especially true for someone who's become promoted to a role where their former peers are now reporting to them.

You first was something like your relationship just changed, right?

Regardless of what you think or want, it has changed.

It doesn't mean you can't like you may still be able to be friends.

That's an idea, like that would be great.

Like if you were friends before.

Ashley Langford

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

But doesn't mean you're friends, right?

But you can be friendly.

And and that like you don't have to be a jerk about it.

You don't have to be the taskmaster.

But you have to be willing also to go, like, if someone's not performing or is becomes a problem, like you've got to be able to address it.

And I think that's where a lot of people struggle, is like, how do I maintain the friendship?

And like to some degree you have to kind of let that go if it's not gonna work.

And that's hard.

Abby Koble

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Ashley Langford

That's really hard for some people because they, you know, they had such a good relationship with someone.

And I've seen it happen firsthand of where you're super close and then now you're the boss.

And it's like they have to be able to respect you now.

There needs to be respect on both sides.

And once that respect starts breaking down, you know, the manager, the leader needs to be able to say, like, hey, you aren't doing a good job right now, or we really need to switch this, or something's going to happen.

And and follow through.

Like you can't just have empty threats of, you know, like with children, like do that again and you're grounded, but then it never happens.

I'm not saying, you know, treat everybody like children, not not saying that, but...

Michael Hartmann

Well, some people...

Michael Hartmann

...deserve some adult human beings deserve to be treated like children because that's how they behave.

So...

Ashley Langford

True.

Yes.

Michael Hartmann

Anyway.

Y'all, this is so much fun.

I'm so glad we got to do this.

Yeah.

This is so much fun.

I know we've kind of meandered and talked about a lot of stuff.

I think it's gonna resonate with a lot of people.

We talked about the job search challenges and job hunting challenges and AI impacts and hopefully it was fun for y'all.

So if if anybody wants to continue the conversation with y'all or kind of follow, learn more about what y'all are doing, what's the best way for them to do that?

Abby Koble

Thank you.

Abby Koble

Yeah.

Abby Koble

LinkedIn for sure for me.

Ashley Langford

Yeah, LinkedIn for me.

Just like Abby found me, I post a lot.

So connect with me, yeah, and comment.

I respond.

So feel free to send me a message.

Michael Hartmann

You do.

Michael Hartmann

I know you do.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

I feel guilty for not posting more often, but...

Abby Koble

No, I love it.

No, it's great.

Thank you for having...

Michael Hartmann

No, it's been great.

Yeah, it was so much fun.

Thank you again.

I appreciate it.

And thanks to our listeners and viewers now.

We appreciate everything and your feedback.

So if you have any suggestions for topics or guests or want to be a guest, you can reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me and we'd be happy to get the ball rolling.

Until next time.

Bye everybody.