Introduction to AI and Balance

Michael Hartmann

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by MarketingOps.com, powered by the MO Pros out there. I am your host, Michael Hartmann. Flying Solo once again. Today, though, I am joined by Debbie Mayen, VP Global Head of Marketing Operations and Analytics at Logitech. Debbie has spent her career at the intersection of marketing operations, analytics, leadership, and emerging technology. But one of the things that stood out during

our conversation she and I had before was her perspective on AI. It was that she's intentionally pursuing a balance in AI and other things. So while she's embracing AI and new technology and her work, she is equally intentional about creating space away from screens through reading, physical books, creative pursuits, exercise, and real human connection. That perspective led us into a fascinating conversation about leadership, technology, and what skills will matter most as AI becomes part of everyday work. So, Debbie, welcome to Opscast.

Debby Mayen

Thank you so much for having me. I'm incredibly honored to be invited.

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Michael Hartmann

Yeah, this is gonna be a lot of fun, I think. So I mentioned this already, like during our initial conversation that know, one of the things that stood out was that you you know you were both simultaneously pursuing AI and kind of AI forward stuff, but also intentionally creating space away from technology. And if I remember right, right, I think that's both for you and for your teams. So where like where did that come from? What was the genesis of that?

Debby Mayen

I think the to be honest with you, I think it's born from me being an eighties kid, right? And all the extremes that come with that. You know, it's I think it it comes from a place of like, you know, I was born into an analog world, but then grew up in a digital world. And so, you know, I experienced kind of major transformations not only how we work with each other, but also how we interact with each other, right?

And matured at different stages when these major milestones happened. And so, you know, the further the the early side of it, the analog side of it, if you will, it encompassed slower productivity, but at a manageable pace, right? Information was limited to like your kind of tangible reality, I like to call it, like your immediate, you know, geographic, physical surroundings.  

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

you know we didn't have access to the world like we do today and so I think as a result kind of anxieties were less, but you know, it was also because there was less to consume. But productivity was also less, right? and then but then on the flip side, once things became digital, productivity kind of skyrocketed, you know, it was it was that mentality of because I could do more, I felt like I had to do more.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Information became global, but with it so did sort of the worries and the fears of that that entails.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Yeah. The anxiety became real.

Debby Mayen

Yes. And so, you know, my brain had to all of a sudden like consume these huge amounts of information and it overwhelmed me for a while. And so I think that sort of this balanced approach, if you will, came from that is that I experienced both sides of the aisle and I wanted to go back to the more, you know, like the the peace of mind that I had in the analog era, but also the productivity, the increased productivity that I had in the digital.

In my mind there had to be a middle ground, so I think that's where it's born.

Michael Hartmann

Well and I think there's some things that I just this just occurred to me some things that promised productivity that I think actually have been counter to that. An example I've always go back to because I've seriously considered multiple times. I still haven't done it because I don't think I could ever go back now because of the rest of the world, but it's a paper calendar versus a digital calendar. Like I think I think a lot of people will resonate with like it feels like my calendar is totally out of my control.

Debby Mayen

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah,

it with it was a paper calendar, I was the one like, Okay, yeah, let's meet, right? And like there was a little bit of to your point, like you had to put in some effort to make that work and everyone was kinda used to it. But now there's like almost no

I'll mean I can't tell you probably experienced this. You're at a bigger company, right? How many times do you get invitations into a meeting that just overlaps like two others that you already have?

Debby Mayen

so many times. Just today I was triple booked for a meeting. I was like, guys, I'm I can only be in one meeting at a time. You know, if it's blocked, it's blocked for a reason, right? You are absolutely correct. It's we, you know, before we were in control of our time, we were in control of our calendar. And now others are in control of it, right? We've granted them that access to it in the in the name of

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

productivity and collaborativeness, right? So at what price?

Michael Hartmann

So I do I mean, do you think that how is that that it feels like it's a little bit of just a net it's 'cause I'm like you, like I started my life pre digital, right? And this came up in one of our recent episodes. Like my son was telling me, think kind of described to me, like what it would've been like. I can't remember which of the like robber barons it was, right? Born in the late eighties I mid eighties, died in the mid nineteen hundreds, right? And all the change happened and he's like, You probably have gone like it like, yeah, like

I have gone through some of the same kinds of things. you know, and it's like, is it so I think does you think it comes a little bit more natural to us, like to balance these things, you know, for people who've come through that age, or is it something that like how did like how did it come for you? Like it feels like it's a natural thing to you so to some degree. and how like how does that affect how you then lead?

Debby Mayen

Yeah. I think I guess it just comes naturally to me because precisely because I experienced it and I can tell you that I've seen both sides of the aisle. For people like like my children, right? Who you know, hilariously say, you know, you're from the late nineteen hundreds, like that hurts my soul. But they actually do not know a world where there was no digital, where

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

You know, it's I have a funny I you know, anecdote of my daughter called me from her high school a couple months ago 'cause she her phone died and she called from, you know, regular phone. It wasn't a rotary phone, but it was just, you know, regular phone. And then when she was leaving me a voicemail, I heard at the end her asking the lady how how do I end this call? She didn't realize she had to just hang up, you know and to me that is the ultimate analogy of the difference.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

They haven't experienced the world where it was okay to not be exposed to everything that digital that comes with digital, right? And all the good and the bad that comes from it. You know, I remember distinctly having no clue what was going on around the world. It was just, you know, what was going on in my world. So I think that's where where it comes kind of intrinsically. But when it comes, you know, in and then in terms of like how

Michael Hartmann

yeah. Yeah.

Debby Mayen

how I lead my team through this rapid adoption, you know, I like to call it the the Ted Lasso approach, my favorite show in the world. it's, you know, be curious about it. Learn about it. Try to really understand where it can bring value and what, you know, what are you what are you going to

gain from it, what can you lose from it, right? Look at both sides of the equation. You know the way I see it, AI shouldn't think for you. Like you know, it's to me that's a mishandling of it. Right? and that this is where you end up with AI slop. Right. It's it should be a tool for expanding your horizons. for allowing you to see other points of view.

Michael Hartmann

No, I agree.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

And you know, information that you may not have known about before. You know, much like when I was a kid, I didn't understand the world around me because I didn't have access to the information. Now I think that's the it's the same thing. We have to approach it that way of like just be curious. what other what additional information can I get from this tool so I can make more informed, more strategic decisions, understand the pros and cons of the technology and

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. I think that's the thing.

Debby Mayen

Use it wisely. That's that's sort of how I like to frame it.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, I mean I think I'm having visions of going, you know, to do a research paper in high school or college where you had to go go like go to the library. you know, go do research, pull out the you know, go through the card catalog, the physical card catalog, go find stuff, go through, you know, the periodical listings, maybe pull out some microfish, right? And then when you had to s and then synthesizing stuff, right? You had to learn how to do that and how to do how to

Debby Mayen

I remember those days.

Michael Hartmann

did have some discernment about what you know how you interpreted stuff and you like I don't know that I was ever explicitly told that just because it's in writing, right, that it's not someone's point of view, even if it's like a nonfiction kind of stuff. because I think there there's a I think I have I feel like that's a piece that we're losing in this all this adoption.

Debby Mayen

Mm-hmm.

Debby Mayen

The critical thinking.

Michael Hartmann

So

Michael Hartmann

yeah. Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Yeah, with it's that blind acceptance that what you're reading is true. I think that's you know, there's a real danger there in that. you have to that's why again that balanced approach has to be I think encouraged by all the organizations, all the people that are using it, because it is very easy to slip into, you know, just

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yes.

Debby Mayen

The dangerous side of it, if you will. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Copy and paste. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. And I think that's I mean, we there's been stories obviously of like attorneys who just copy and stuff and it's got references to cases that never happened and you know, things like that. So I think there's that's that's one of the things that worries me about all this is that it just, you know, to the c you said the critical thinking. So I mean I think I think that like this

can lead to anxiety at sort of two ends of a spectrum almost. Like one is like, AI is gonna change everything. So I need to move quickly and adopt it, or AI is gonna fuck everything up. So I should be scared. Sorry. not sorry. But you but but I think I think between you and I, I've neither of us I think live in that one of those extremes. How so how do you 'cause I'm sure that you feel pressure probably, right? To do to do AI, as do a lot of the people listening and watching.

Debby Mayen

No.

Debby Mayen

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

How do you how do you go about trying to balance that within your organization?

Debby Mayen

I think it's important to acknowledge, first of all, how important and significant of an advancement this is, right? the fact that we have these tools available to us where we can essentially converse and interact with all of the knowledge that humanity has produced. I mean, that is mind-blowing. You know, can you imagine what a you know like what what

What additional wonders we would have today if great thinkers like Socrates, John Locke, Descartes, you know, Plato, all of them had access to Claude or ChatGPT. Lord knows where we'd be today, right? And I get I guarantee you that there is a John Locke out there, a Plato out there today, a modern day one, that is, you know, already benefiting from this tool. So I acknowledge it. It's an advancement.

AI as a Tool for Human Enhancement  

Michael Hartmann

It's it's crazy. Yeah.

Debby Mayen

and it's a huge one. Now, with that said, it it is still a tool. It is a morally agnostic tool. Now, whether you use it to evolve or, you know, nefarious kind of purposes, destroy, it's really up to each user. So I on the capabilities.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

And to really, you know, be explicit about their expectations with regards to how it should be used. our our CEO here at Logitech, like she has she I love the phrase that she uses. She emphasizes the importance of AI for extending the human potential. And I agree with that wholeheartedly because it emphasizes the human in it. use it to bring out the best in you, not to replace you.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Yeah, so use it to reclaim the way I see it, the way at least to my organization, to my teams, is use it to reclaim some precious time from, you know, the day-to-day tasks that are just sucking up all of your your day and your joy. use it to use it to help you solve a

problem that's been robbing you of your peace. Reclaim your peace, right?

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. So

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think this idea that AI is gonna replace people, it's interesting, you know, the headlines with several, you know, significant layoffs that companies over the past several months have been at least on the surface said they were like due to AI, right? And I think the implication it's gonna replace people. I highly doubt that's really the cause in most cases. But

I'm sure there's some of that. I'm sure there's some of the belief that that's the case. And I just I really think that's I think you what you described, right? Having it be a way to enable people to do could I've I've heard it called a like a time dividend. I'm not sure I totally love that, but it's I mean it's I think it's as good as what I've heard that you, you know, you now free up people, especially for knowledge work, right? I think there's a huge benefit

With the caveat that is you don't just completely outsource your thinking.

Debby Mayen

Yeah. It's you know, it it AI is a tool. It's never going to replace people, right? It's a tool. And one of the things that I always tell, you know, my team is think of AI as being something that's in service of people. It's not in replacement of them, right? yeah, AI is measured on its output, strictly on its output.

Critical Thinking and AI  

Debby Mayen

We humans are not, you know, I make it clear to my team that they are so much more than their output. You know, they're the tight relationships that they build with our stakeholders. They are, you know, the incredible knowledge base of our tech stack and our just and our systems that they bring to the table, right? they're they're their unique personalities that they bring to the table. You know, it's I have a team member whose hobby YouTube dance instructor.

Michael Hartmann

They build with our stakeholders. Yeah. They jobs.

Debby Mayen

I have another one who's a loving dad and he brings he raises chickens and roosters and sometimes he brings them to the calls and we love that. you know it's

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, when we got you guys.

Michael Hartmann

We have we have

backyard chickens, I don't bring them to the calls, but that's okay.

Debby Mayen

I encourage it. I'd love to see the chickens and what they're up to, but you know, it's that humanity that makes the team such a joy to work with and also that makes people want to work with us. And I think it's it's that humanity that AI cannot replace.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, I don't think so either. I think I think there's it's interesting. I think it was actually my wife was talking to me about something and it was a work related thing, but she was just and she said like really the AI stuff is the focus has been on its the the computational capacity and efficiency as opposed to the and and I was like, that's a great way of sort of discerning like it's not really

Debby Mayen

What value is it bringing beyond its computational? Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

Right. And it's like it's not replacing like so I use a platform for my coaching that I like and it's got an AI interpretation, but I found like it's an adapt I'm ad it's adapt adapted from one that's meant for manager direct report relationships. And it and it still there's probably a way to do this and I haven't done it yet, but it's like some of the feedback I get feedback, which is great on my coaching sessions.

But I also recognize like, part of what the feedback I got had a built-in assumption that was a manager direct report relationship, not a coach client kind of relationship. Right. And so so useful as the feedback was and has been in certain cases, I realized like, there's some nuance here that I need to like I can't just assume it's gonna be correct or I need to try to give it more context. And so I like could it could have done that well myself?

No, for two reasons. One, like there's a bias built in, right? Plus I wasn't actively taking notes. Like I was trying to really be more present in the conversation. And I think there's value there, but I also think there was value would been value had I sat down, taken my own notes, recapped it, shared like so I'm torn because I have gotten out of the habit of taking notes regularly. And I think that's like for me, like that part is like

Using AI as a Devil's Advocate 18:04  

Michael Hartmann

We had guest on a while ago who used AI to interpret the actual audio recordings, looking for inflections, and I thought that was a really interesting thing, but it still doesn't get to like body language. Right. There's things there that only humans right now can truly interpret. I'm sure there's somebody somebody out there is gonna tell me I'm wrong, but like I feel like I can pretty quickly yeah.

Debby Mayen

Mm-hmm.

Debby Mayen

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

AI can't read the room, you know.

Debby Mayen

AI can't can't can't see if you know, people are checked out while you're presenting something and and signal, hey, you might need to at least any AI that I'm aware of. Like you said, maybe somebody out there has a tool that does like, look at their faces or whatever, but you know what I mean? There's so many non digital signals that we still need as as as

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

I get yeah.

Debby Mayen

workforce to be able to read and be productive. It's not just about output. It's about relationships and interactions. AI can help with the productivity part for output, which leaves room for the human part of it, for building those critical relationships, for making an effective organization, for, you know, just just also being collaborative and and working towards a common goal. AI can't do that in my opinion.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. I mean, one of the things I've thought is that AI, maybe this is kind of what you were talking about, like brings people to an average, right? So if you're weak at something, it can either amplify or fix your weakness, or if you're good at something it can do the do the same there. Like how are you how are you like does that s ring true to you that can do that? 'Cause I think we when we talked about it before, you you you said that like AI can amplify both strengths and weaknesses.

So

Debby Mayen

Yes. I mean, if you think about it, right? In I I I think intellectual awareness, self-awareness is the is the key here. Cause AI will always try to make the person interacting with the tool happy with their output because you know that's that's so you keep using it, right? They don't they don't want to give you an answer you're not happy with and then you're like, I'm not gonna use this anymore. It's it's a self survival mechanism, which is expected. So if you're a person

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, yep.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Debby Mayen

looking for validation, right? If that's your purpose in the interaction with AI, obviously the tool is going to try to validate your train of thought, try to make you happy so you keep returning to it. And that to me is the real danger. you know, if you're not careful about contextualizing what it is that you need from that AI interaction.

then it can go down a real you know, it it can it can really enhance weaknesses. Like it can really it can really say, excuse me, it can really you know, validate assumptions that are completely flawed that could then bring you to a poor position amongst, you know, let's say leadership if you're presenting something and they call something out as untrue or, you know, inherently flawed that AI told you was real. So I think that the the it's

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Preparing for Challenges in Analytics 21:07  

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Debby Mayen

The key, as I mentioned in the beginning, the key is that intellectual self awareness. What do you want the tool to do? be very explicit, be able to really communicate what you need from it and and really elaborate what results you're expecting from it. I think that's where people nowadays struggle a little bit with. They tend to say, you know, vague.

Michael Hartmann

And and and really elaborate what's bringing questions on it. I think that's where people nowadays struggle a little bit with. Yeah. tend to say, you know, make

Michael Hartmann

requests without

Debby Mayen

requests without contextualizing

it. I think that's the danger.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. I think I think my big first aha moment with we with LLMs in particular was going from those vague kind of questions to like almost things that were like the prompt was longer than the answer.

Debby Mayen

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

You know, and but it it and then having an interactive thing. But so w one of the things that I think you talked about with me before is that one of the things you've you've started doing very intentionally is doing your own thinking first and then using an AI tool to challenge the conclusions as opposed to outsourcing or replacing your thinking.

I'm curious like what was what was the catalyst for that and how has it affected

Your thinking and how you use the tools.

Debby Mayen

absolutely. I mean, if you think about it, the reality with AI is that in in AI doing the thinking, right? Not you, it's that it's always gonna be flawed. Why? Because there there's always data that it isn't inevitably does not have access to. We all have data in our brains that is not documented anywhere. No matter how much you say you don't you do it, it's not documented anywhere.

And

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Have you have you ever seen

Michael Hartmann

any of those those videos of people who are like it's usually like kindergarten kids who are told, give directions on how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and then the teacher tries to do go down that rabbit hole. But it but it's your point is like there we all make assumptions, right? It's like, you know, do you open the open yeah. There's small little details that that are part of that you just just yeah.

Debby Mayen

No, I haven't.

Debby Mayen

Yeah, we all make assumptions and so that make all the difference. And

Debby Mayen

so AI does not have access to it. So it's inherently going to be flawed. If you tell it to think for you, it's inherently going to be flawed. It doesn't have the legacy knowledge that you have. It doesn't have the, you know, again, the relationship knowledge that you have, like from interactions. So to me, the way I like to use it is I like to come up with my own

thoughts, my own, you know, my do my own thinking and then use AI sort of the devil's advocate to to then, okay, tell it, find flaws in my thinking. Really, you know, figure out the weak points and go, you know, ha have a full-on debate with me about it. And that's it's made a huge difference. I've been able to identify so many flaws in my thinking this way because

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

But the same premise that I had access in my brain to information that, you know, AI didn't have. I also have ac I also have biases because it's it's in my own brain. So I'd much rather use the extensive knowledge that AI has to challenge me than to support me. Cause that's in ironically, that's how it will best support me.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, no, I think that's true. And it's I mean it's like one of the things I've always liked in a culture is one where you get that from a human, right? So whether it's, you know, a manager or somebody reports to you or a peer or whatever, right, is having someone who having an environment where you're willing like willing to have that back and forth, play devil's advocate. I think it refine it makes the out

like the output or decision or direction or strategy, whatever it is you're trying to do, you get the best answer. Right. And you understand like if there are flaws or risks or like it it all comes out.

Debby Mayen

Absolutely. You know, it's you any any any point of view that isn't stress tested is an incomplete one, in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. So it but instead of me having, you know, because my team I'll do it a lot with my team members too, but we all we're all incredibly busy. I can't stress test every thought I have with people all day long, right? So that's that's where it's been a huge

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. I like that. Yeah. No, I it

Michael Hartmann

Sure. Right.

Debby Mayen

asset for me 'cause now I have AI to just go back and forth with it. Like, hey, where am I getting this wrong? Right.

Michael Hartmann

Are

Michael Hartmann

so are you using it more like devil's advocate or challenge it or are you also or is or maybe this is implied, right? Are you looking for what are my blind spots or bi like you said biases, right? Do you think it's all of that or part of it?

Debby Mayen

All of it, especially, you know, it it depends on what it is that I'm tasking it for, right? So recently or recently, like a year and a yeah, a year a year ago, we completely overhauled our analytics framework. And you know, that's a big move, because you're essentially resetting how people think about numbers they've been reporting on for forever, how they look at these metrics, you know, right? I didn't take that decision lightly. I had an extensive

Michael Hartmann

Sure.

Debby Mayen

debate. You know, I put down like what were my thoughts why I was going that way. I'll I wrote down the whole thing and I fed it into our our AI model and I said, okay, I need you to do a a postmortem on this. Assume that this has been executed. What did I what went wrong? Right. And so it it went through every possible scenario and told me what went wrong. And then with that I I tweaked it

the the you know, I was like, wow damn, I never thought of that. That I'm so glad, you know, that came up. I tweaked it and then I came back and I said, okay, I've tweaked it. Now tell me where what you know, play devil's advocate. Where do you where where where do you disagree and why? And that it gave it fed me the ammunition I needed for if people are challenging it, I can thoroughly explain why we're going in this direction.

Michael Hartmann

Right, yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah. And I think analytics is a great like analytics reporting is probably a great place for that because like I know when I've teams before when I've asked people or when I coach people or manage people and I put in a position where they're gonna reporting numbers 'cause I want to give people opportunity. One of the things I always tell them is like

want yourself in the seat of someone who doesn't really know the stuff very well. And like, what are they gonna see? Like, just take out what you know and take it like what's hey, there's this one

data point that's out of whack with everything else, right? You need to explain it, right? And you could just say like the explanation could be it's an anomaly, it's you know, whatever it was, right? But you gotta have an explanation 'cause that's gonna stand out because humans are pattern recognition animals.

Debby Mayen

Exactly. And that's how you build trust.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. So you it's like don't just throw up the slide to hear the numbers, right? Have the slide and anticipate these questions. And it sounds that's what you were doing to some degree that's what you were doing with this new analytics model was like going through that process of preparing yourself for all the challenges that might come up with it.

Debby Mayen

Yeah, it's you know, if if you're it if you're gonna make big changes in an organization, you better be able to defend it. And AI has been incredibly helpful for arming me with the with you know, that data.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

How can I how can I what what what are some potential issues I may face that I need to answer for? If it's if I can't avoid them, then I better be able to answer for them.

Michael Hartmann

Absolutely. Yeah, I was gonna say like that it may not change what you ultimately do, but at least it makes forces you to think through why you're making that decision, right?

Debby Mayen

Exactly. And it's I can't I can't say that I would have done that pre AI. I mean I would like to think I would, but there's just no way I could I could come I could, you know, have access to somebody for that long to to have that feedback. And so that's been incredibly helpful. It's been it's been a game changer for me in that respect.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, that and that makes sense to me. So so something in this actually came up in a recent episode where Mike and Naomi and I were talking and Naomi asked us the question like on on net, right? Has AI been a positive or a negative for people in ops roles? And I and I think another thing that came out of that is this like and I've heard this multiple times recently. It's really stuck with me is like how important in this is this

The Importance of Human Skills in an AI World 30:06  

Michael Hartmann

new world where AI is sort of embedded in so many things or at least being to you know trying to be this ubiquitous ability to be human, right? We talked about this earlier, right? Like how do you I mean do you think that that's true that like having life human skills is going to be more important in the AI enabled world? And then like why and how how do you how do you prepare for that?

Debby Mayen

I think it's gonna become the most precious commodity. I mean, if you think about it, you're democratizing knowledge to everybody. So where, you know, back in the in the medieval ages, right, the ones who could read were the ones that held the knowledge. They had that advantage. So knowledge itself was an asset. But now

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

You're democratizing access to all of the information that humanity has produced. And so with that, what's the what's the differentiator? So what do you do with that information? How creative are you? How how what is the what is the humanity that you bring behind what you do with it? I think that's the that's gonna be the key differentiator for how we value how we work with AI. What's what do you do with it?

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. I mean it it's the difference between there's this silly quip, maybe you've heard it, right? That you know, knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit and wisdom is knowing not to use it in a fruit salad.

Debby Mayen

I love that. Yes, absolutely. You know?

Michael Hartmann

Right. Is

Michael Hartmann

and it's like I think that's you know, maybe it's like because I'm older, right? This idea like, you know, or it's like youth is youth is wasted on the young kind of right, like if I only knew what I wouldn't change anything. It's just I think there's like that discernment that you learn through experience in life we could be lost. And and I I what what really worries me, and I think we have kids are maybe

somewhere in age or yours are a little bit little bit behind mine or whatever. But like I I don't want to go down a whole rabbit hole about the education system, but I do worry that the skills we just said are gonna be most important are not at all what they're taught in school. They're taught to memorize facts and regurgitate them and they're not taught to think critically. They're not because of technology to some degree, right? Their ability to communicate, like interact with people in a human setting is degrading.

Debby Mayen

Mm-hmm.

Debby Mayen

Right.

Michael Hartmann

my opinion. Like I don't like so I think there's stuff out there that would would support that. But like that's a concern I have too. If we're saying that that's going to be a more important skill, it's not the skills we're teaching our kids.

Debby Mayen

mean it's you're absolutely right but I also think that these are skills that I don't think can be taught. I think they even though you learn them, but you learn them through you day to day human interactions, right? Through, you know, I know, it it's you you you learn to read the room by growing up in the education system and seeing how people react to things that you do, right?

Kids learn real quickly that when par you know, parents frown, they're not happy with what you did. So they don't do it again. You know what I mean? They it's things like that. And so it's I think that, you know, the it's the soft skills that really I I think the younger generation needs to develop. They need to it's you know, as I mentioned before, it's it output is not the only thing that measures

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah.

Debby Mayen

the greatness of a team. It's also all of these kind of soft skill related. I mean for lack of a better word like out outputs as well. You know, how good are they at building relationships? Because that's critical. If you're in an ops role, you need to be up you need to be a master at building relationships cross-functionally to get anything done. Because we don't own everything that we're responsible for. So we have to be able to build those relationships. How are we preparing our children for that?

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Debby Mayen

I don't know, to be honest with you.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. No, I think

Michael Hartmann

I'd I'm expecting an answer on that, but like it's it's I like I said, I've heard this multiple times. Like the differentiator is gonna be in these I don't even like to call them soft skills, 'cause I think they're just skills, right? Human skills. and if if that's gonna be the differentiator, I do see like I don't see a lot of that kind of skill being developed in younger generations.

Debby Mayen

Absolutely. And I do think that, you know, it's they they were they were crippled by having a period of time where all the interactions had to be digital. You know, not not criticizing why it was done like that's I have no opinion on that. But I am what I am seeing is that, you know, I recently hired for a few positions and one of them was you know entry level and I very much noticed that gap.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

No.

Debby Mayen

There was an inability to connect with me on the call. There was an inability to sort of attempt to build that relationship. even if it's just a short one in an interview, right? you know, depend and and I even had some that, you know, I very clearly saw that they use AI to write their resume, which is fine. I have no, you know, I don't judge that. Go for it, it's a productivity tool. But then

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

But use it to enhance what you've actually done, not to make things up, right? And be able to and be able to speak to it. So I think I think they're the this generation is so fearful of what's coming down the road because of AI that they're not they don't realize that they need to just work their people skills, their creativity, their humanity. That's what's gonna get them ahead.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, II think that's that's a really good point. Is I so is that like when you have I'm curious just to too c I'm like like trying to organize my thoughts here, but they the in that scenario, I'm just curious, did you give feedback to that person?

Debby Mayen

I did. I did. Yeah, I told them they're a lovely person, you know, but here's here's what I would recommend. And then I I, you know, gave them some feedback so that 'cause I want them to succeed. I want them to to find the job where they're coming. But if nobody tells them how how will they know, right? I think that's that's also part of the problem is is people are afraid to give constructive feedback because they're afraid of how it's gonna be received. So I'm not in that camp. Like I said, I'm an eighties kid.

Michael Hartmann

Okay, good.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

The Value of Constructive Feedback 36:56  

Debby Mayen

so you know.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. We don't want to hurt someone's feelings,

Michael Hartmann

but sometimes you have to like doesn't mean

Debby Mayen

you can

Debby Mayen

communicate it without hurting people's feelings. It's just your intent has to be clearly communicated. And my intent was to help. So I think it is our jobs as the older professionals more or not older, I should say the more experienced wiser professionals. you know, older but wiser. I think it is our job to really whenever we see something that is clearly getting in the way of somebody's ability to grow.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, I'm older, yeah.

Debby Mayen

You know, we should we should express it to them because you can't always see what's right in front of your face. And so as long as you are able to communicate it in a c in a kind but effective way, then I think that'll make all the diff the difference, you know. It it's our job.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. No, I I mean

Michael Hartmann

I I think of, you know, a couple, you know, maybe half a dozen times in my career where I've had to have that kind of conversation with someone and it took me a long time. Actually the probably the first time I was a manager, like I would have I almost didn't want to do it again because it was such a horrific experience. But part of that was because

You know, I w for whatever reason, right, I want everybody to like me or you know, not don't wouldn't want to upsetting people and like sometimes that just comes with the territory. and I think I've switched way I've switched my view now is like it's people deserve  

the honest feedback. It doesn't give you license to be a jerk about it. Right. Right. I and I and I think people so like I with with when I've especially when I've inherited teams, right? A big part of what I've had to do is like establish trust. Because I think once you you you can't do that very well if you haven't already established that you've got a like there's a trusting relationship that you do want the best for the person. even if that means

Debby Mayen

Yeah. Exactly.

Debby Mayen

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

Hey, this is probably not the right fit for you, right? Kind of thing.

Debby Mayen

Yeah. I mean it's it yeah, as a manager it's our job to develop our teams, their skill set, their their, you know, help them grow professionally. And, you know, it's sometimes it's it's the hard truths that they have to hear and it's for their benefit. Someone who's not thriving in their role is most likely not happy. So have that conversation, you know, is this really what you want to do? Is there what are what are the roadblocks?

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Managing Performance and Growth 39:30  

Debby Mayen

Here, what can we do here? Do we need to find like a different path for you? Let's work together and find out what that is, right?

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Well, I think the flip the flip side is true also is that if especially in the case of say someone who's you've I even hate to put it this way, but not pulling their weight, right? Not you know, if you're a leader and you're not addressing that, right, they everyone sees it, right? It's not like it's an unknown thing usually. And now there might be

Debby Mayen

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Mm.

Debby Mayen

Mm-hmm.

Debby Mayen

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

reasons why things are going on in personal life. But then like if you've got a little relationship where you can understand that and how it's affecting somebody, like something outside of work or whatever, but like not doing something about it is not okay. And I mean, I think there's lots of people out there who've experienced someone a scenario like that, right? There's an obvious issue and it gets ignored.

Debby Mayen

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Yeah, it's you know, you you you end up alienating your top performers too, right? So it's a it's a delicate balance of supporting people and everybody goes through things. You have to, you know, you you have to be understanding, but you also have to be transparent with both sides of the aisle, right? And so the hardest thing that you can ever do is when you come to that point where you can no longer continue in the path that you're on.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yes.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Right. So it's you know, as the manager you have to decide, okay, can we reverse the situation or do we need to part ways? It's incredibly painful, it's incredibly heartbreaking.

Yeah.

But it's the hard part of managing.

Michael Hartmann

Sucks. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. I mean, leadership's not for the faint of heart, you know.

Debby Mayen

No.

The Reality of Leadership 41:16  

Debby Mayen

it's not. you know, everybody, I think there's a you know, a lot of people see leadership as a way of growing career-wise. because for so long, that's what we've been told. You should aspire to be a manager, to be a director, to be what a whatever. but I know so many people who ended up in managerial roles and they said, God, I wish I could just go

back to being an individual contributor. you know, the reality the reality is.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yep.

Michael Hartmann

I'll I have a lot of I have a lot

Michael Hartmann

of information for the people who do that.

Debby Mayen

Yeah, the reality is you know, it it might not be for everybody. And you can grow quite a bit in an independent contributor position. It's not, you know, that's what I think we need to normalize is an independent contributor still brings an incredible amount of value to the company. My father-in-law never, you know, he's he's a he's an incredible engineer. Companies call him left and right all the time to consult. He never managed anybody. He was like, No, I don't I don't I wanna I'm good at

what I do in engineering. I'm not good at managing people. So I'm gonna stick to my lane and that's and he grew his career quite phenomenally. I think that that kind of self awareness is also critical nowadays.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, II I have a a friend, former colleague that was a salesperson. He ended up in another company and he got promoted to be a sales manager. And I think in less than a year he had opted back to going to be a salesperson. He's like, I want to be selling. I don't want to be managing sellers. And I was like, Wow, good for you. Right. I think that

Debby Mayen

Okay. I think that's where the cultural shift needs to happen is to say that's totally fine. You know, it's a lot. It's a lot because you have to, you know, you have to your job, but then you also have to manage other people's growth, other people's, you know, you know, their their evolution as well. And it's not for the faint of heart, it's not for everybody, and that's okay.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

No. And it's not I think there's a lot of people end up in those roles and think, I'm just gonna tell everybody what to do. Maybe they don't totally think that, but like if they're honest with themselves, that's w part of why they think they wanna be in that role. But it's like that's you can get compliance in the short run.

Debby Mayen

Yeah, exactly. It's in the end, it's you have to become the person that decides what are the priorities. And then you have to manage your team on it and say, okay, now you decide how you're gonna execute on that. And then you know what I mean? Like that's that's the key difference. Can you can you make that leap?

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. And you have to deal with unplanned stuff. Like I had somebody work for me who was a key contributor, got cancer, and we had to support her and like figure out how we kept things going until she figured out if she was gonna be able to come back or not. Like it's like that was just the reality.

And yeah.

So what I mean we talked about some of these quote soft skills, end quote, right?

Debby Mayen

Yeah, life happens.

Michael Hartmann

Wha what other things are you seeing with like people coming into the workforce now that are skills that like that they need to be practicing and learning as they come in?

Debby Mayen

I mean, you know, I mentioned before that ability to build relationships, but I think also the most critical one is the ability to take feedback, right? I've seen so many people that take it very personally when there's any feedback involved. And I keep telling my team, listen, you know, good or bad, we should always accept every piece of feedback. We actually learn more.

Embracing Feedback and Critical Thinking 44:36  

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

Yes.

Debby Mayen

from our mistakes than we do from our successes. If you're not failing, you're doing it wrong. You're not taking enough risk. You're not, you're not growing outside of your comfort zone. So I think that is the most critical kind of soft skill that people need to really learn is that ability to take constructive feedback is the ability to, you know, the humility to understand that you don't know everything.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

You can always learn more. There are people that you can always learn something from everybody. I always assume I'm missing something. I always assume there is something I can learn here from this person. This person has points of views, experiences that I've never experienced that I should learn from. The day I assume that I don't need to learn anything, that's the day I'm retiring. I'm like, mm-hmm, II I can't grow anymore. You know?

I think that's the key.

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Debby Mayen

ch you know characteristic that people should really work on.

Michael Hartmann

you

Michael Hartmann

know, part of that people should be on. Yeah. I think that's well, I think in I'm gonna so I'm gonna attack on my own because this is how I go. But I think this ability to take feedback, I think the other part we talked about a little bit is I think it's still you still need to retain critical thinking. Like I do develop a crit because sometimes you get feedback that is not like you can go like, you can accept it, But you need to go like

Yeah.

Do I need to do anything with this? Do I not need to do anything with it? Right? Cause sometimes it's I mean, I think I've heard this from other people. I don't know where I've heard it from. It was like, yeah.

If you if there's like don't take advice for people you w like that you don't think are like

Debby Mayen

Yeah. Sometimes

Debby Mayen

people just want to be feel they want to feel seen and heard. And sometimes the best thing you can do is listen. Sometimes an action isn't needed. Sometimes it's just, okay, let them get it off their chest and then they'll feel better about it. And actually isn't a problem anymore. you're absolutely right. That ability, that critical thinking to discern between the two is also a big one.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, I think so.

Michael Hartmann

So say

Michael Hartmann

we've got somebody who's listening or watching now that's, you know, probably pretty early in their marketing ops or rev ops career. How would you like what would your be your best advice to them on like how to embrace AI and not lose some of those things we just talked about?

Leveraging AI Without Losing Human Touch 47:35  

Debby Mayen

gosh, I would say

Use so don't let AI rob you of the experiences. Don't let AI do the thinking for you. Let yourself make the mistakes. Use AI. Let yourself learn. Let yourself be curious, right? Use AI to expand your knowledge set. Don't use it to think for you. So

Michael Hartmann

Mm.

Debby Mayen

You know, use it to reclaim you know the the the the minutes, hours of your day that the rote tasks occupy, you know. use it as a companion to help you solve a problem that's really bugging you, that's robbing you of your peace of mind. Get your sanity back. You know, it's it's you it's got it AI has access to all the information out there in the world.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Use it if somebody must have gone through this at some point, you know, whatever problem is you have. Use it to help you walk through it, right, and understand it better. Don't use it to fake it, to make it seem like you know what you're doing, because it will come out.

Michael Hartmann

It somebody must have gone through this at some point, you know, whatever problem you have. But how do you walk through it? Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Use it to make it to make it

Michael Hartmann

seem like what Sooner or later.

Debby Mayen

It always comes out. It's, you know, eventually the fakers are always unmasked, right? honest about your use with it. I tell people, I'm like, yeah, I use AI. You know, like II am I am not great at putting together PowerPoint presentations like creatively. Like I don't know how to make it super pretty.

You know, I can I yeah, I can I am good at gathering the information at pulling the insights, but in terms of presenting I'm like, I'm a

Michael Hartmann

We're we're same here.

Debby Mayen

I'm an ops person. I'm not, you know, I don't know how to make this look pretty. So I go and use Gemini to help me spruce it up because that's not that's my weakness. I spend it'll take me three times as long to do it than it would Gemini. But more than that, right? So use it. AI's great at doing the things that you can't necessarily great at doing, that waste your time. So go use it for that. you know, it's it help it reclaim.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Your hu the the things that make you human, your happiness, your sanity, your your contentment with what you're doing.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Finding Balance in a Digital World 50:03  

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, carve our time to read a book. Like a real book. A real book.

Debby Mayen

Yes, physical books. Yeah.

Debby Mayen

You know, it it it's not everything has to be digital, but also it is really cool. So it's just find the balance, you know?

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

I mean there's just something different about reading a book like even like I've gotten to the point where I use audiobooks more now than I do reading books, but there's something about even with audiobooks where like you've gotten to imagine a scene, right?

Debby Mayen

and with audiobooks

Debby Mayen

I get distracted. Whereas with reading I have to I'm looking at I can't get distracted by anything visually, right? Or you know, at least there's less chance. So I actually absorb it better if I'm reading than audiobooks. Audiobooks I just I think, okay, I could be doing dishes right now as well. I could be, you know, multitasking and then I miss half of it.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, yep. So I'm with you. The the only so it's interesting you talk about like it take the the things that you are it it I think this is a good point to maybe to end on, but you talked about like if you like for you, right, doing the visual part of a PowerPoint, same same. I'm not for it's not a strong suit. It would take a lot of time. Closing that gap, right? Improving what your output is is one thing, but if you're good at something.

Like I this is where you I don't think you wanna out like just rely on it. Right? It can cause other it's gonna bring it down. And I think

Debby Mayen

No. Yeah. AI is not gonna be better at it than you are. Yeah. AI is not

Debby Mayen

if you're an expert at something, AI is not gonna be better at it than you are.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. And I think that's the maybe that's where I would I land on this is like use it for use it for the things that you know you it could make you could make it better with that and then use it for the things you're good at to help like e make them even better, but don't rely on it. I think that's I think the the key then is this like self-awareness, right? Which are the things I'm actually really good at and which ones am I not.

Debby Mayen

Yeah.

Debby Mayen

Yes.

Debby Mayen

What are you good at? What are you not? And what are you looking for from the tool? Very clearly define that and you'll be able to leverage it in awesome ways. Don't let it own you. You know, you define how you want it to work for you.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Anyway.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, absolutely. Debbie, so much fun. Glad we got to do this. If folks want to continue the conversation or just keep up with what you're talking about or doing, what's the best way for them to do that?

Debby Mayen

Absolutely, feel free to reach out to me in LinkedIn, you know, always. I check it as often as I can. you know, I can provide my LinkedIn profile happily.

Michael Hartmann

Sounds good. Well, I appreciate it. Again, thank you, Debbie. This has been a great conversation. I think like this is helping. I think will help a lot of people with is there evolving. 'Cause it feels like we're at a sort of a change in how people are perceiving and using these tools right now. At least that's the sense I get. Yeah. so it's been good. I think timely conversation. Thank you for that. Thanks to our audience out there for continuing to support us. If you have ideas for topics or guests or

Debby Mayen

We definitely at a crossroads.

Michael Hartmann

you wanna be a guest, you can reach out to Naomi Mike or me and we get the ball rolling. Till next time. Bye everybody.

Debby Mayen

Thank you.