Michael Hartmann

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by MarketingOps.com and powered by all the MoPros out there. I'm your host, Michael Hartmann. Joining me today is Len Ward. He's the Managing partner and head of AI at Comexis. Len spent more than two decades building and leading an agency that evolved from traditional and digital marketing into analytics and AI.

That experience has given him a front row seat to a fundamental change in how people find information, evaluate options, and make decisions. So Len believes marketing is moving from a search and retrieve model to a solve problem model. We'll get more into that. And at the shift will challenge many of the assumptions behind websites, search content, lead generation in the customer journey. So Len, welcome to the show.

Len Ward

Thanks for having me, Michael. Appreciate.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, glad to get glad to do it. I think it's an interesting per perspective. So while we like before we get too far into it, one thing we like to do is is get a little more background on people. So I gave the very surface level like before we we talk about where you think marketing is going, especially as it relates to AI and these tools, you can tell us a little bit about.

it's that what it was when you started as the agency, but how did you evolve from a traditional agency into one that's more focused on analytics and AI and what was it, you know, that was maybe the catalyst for that, right? Because as what did you see that was triggered you to go and make that change?

The Evolution of Comexis and Digital Marketing  

Len Ward

Sure. So we started Comexis actually the original iteration was a company called Rank Me SEO. So better part about 20 years ago, we were doing search engine optimization when there really wasn't a lot of people doing SEO. I was actually a solo practitioner doing it. And this is when you were optimizing for more than Google. Those multiple, multiple search engines you were trying to go for at that point. As SEO grew, as more and more people kind of started pushing in towards the digital landscape. And it's funny because 20 years ago you were

Ike had to convince people to do digital, which was funny. Now they just it's like a utility. They know they have to do it. But remember those days? Yeah. Just amazing.

Michael Hartmann

I remember those days like it was yeah, yeah.

Len Ward

So we started the morph. The my agency started growing. I started hiring like one person here, one person there, but it was rather quickly. I tell people all the time I went from an SEO firm to a an SEO agency or an SEO consultancy to an agency very rapidly where we almost had like 25 people working for us. and and

We went through the, you know, we went through the mobile error. People may not remember, but there was a mobile error where people weren't necessarily happy about, you know, putting their information on a phone. You know, like their their payment information and so forth. Then we kind of moved into the social media error, which was a very, very big error. That was a very, you know, we had a time during social media when people would not to play anything on social media, and then there was even a video.

era, if you remember that. That's kind of where everything was starting to move into, you know, video and so forth. So we kind

Michael Hartmann

yeah, sure.

Len Ward

of started migrating there. We had a couple acquisitions of smaller agencies and we became a full service digital agency from video to websites to hosting, the SEO, every, everything you could possibly think of is what we were pretty much offering. Then probably about 2017, 18, I forget the actual year, but we came across the IBM Watson. And IBM Watson was because we always, everybody heard about AI.

AI is, you know, if you haven't heard about it.

Michael Hartmann

I thought I just played chess, right?

Len Ward

Yeah, it's yeah. And AI was, it's been around since the 40s or 50s. Like a lot of people don't realize that. It's not a new invention. but you always heard in our world, and you know this, is automation was concerning. Well, it's gonna add automate us, we're gonna lose jobs, and you know, and then you would hear how Google and Facebook were starting to do certain things where they could do the marketing for you. but we our team started dipping in and looking at things with AI.

There were some very early companies that claimed they were doing AI. It wasn't AI. And even, but IBM Watson was the we bought a subscription for. We gave it a shot. And I say this a lot is we looked at it, it was good, kind of junk. But we said, okay, if they're going to do what they're saying they're doing, because you started reading a lot of stuff about it, and then you started hearing about ChatGPT, like open AI, you're like, okay, this is going to be kind of magical. But the funny part about AI is initially everybody thought it's just going to start writing stuff for everybody. Like that's kind of how AI was

Len Ward

starting. Well it's going to take care of emails

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

and do this and do that.

Michael Hartmann

Yep.

Len Ward

So we started testing it, but the minute OpenAI released ChatGPT and we went in and we looked at it, there was a lot of lot of errors with it. But what we did see was like, okay, this is going to fundamentally change copywriting, you know, ad copy, even strategy. Cause we started we actually threw strategy in it right away to see what was happening. So

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

it was right there where I looked around and I was like, You saw it was the same thing I saw when you saw Google twenty five years ago.

And then when we saw this 25 years later, I'm like, this is way more powerful. I'm like, I want to push all my chips into the center of the table. so that's how Comexis arrived where we are. But I will say, I still think AI is where

Michael Hartmann

we were with the internet 25 years ago, where people were still not really knowing what this is. And the same conversations now about we're gonna lose our jobs and this were the same things were happened 25 years ago. Trust me, it was the same conversations.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah.

Len Ward

so that's kind of how Comexis, you know, got to.

The Impact of AI on Marketing Strategies 05:18  

Len Ward

You know, right now we are an AI consultancy and we start going in and we implement, you know, AI services and AI products for people to kind of get them moving.

Michael Hartmann

Sure.

Len Ward

along.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, so it's funny. I was thinking when you were describing sort of the evolution of digital from, you know, search search stuff to other digital, then you talked about video and I remember like how many places I was where we were like, is is video is it social or is it like I thinking about those kinds of conversations now, like they seem like it doesn't really matter, right? And of course, right. I guess Google's well, I don't know if this is still true or not, but I think it is. Is that Google or YouTube isn't it still the second biggest search engine on the internet? Is that yeah?

Len Ward

Yes, it is behind behind Google. I I

Len Ward

actually think that's gonna overtake Google soon. I

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

I think you YouTube's gonna eventually overtake that. I think that's a matter of time. That that's gonna be you that's gonna be Google's one of their major asset and last vestiges of the old world. Cause I do we're in the process of watching search collapse right now.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Well, so let's get into that a little bit. So in

Len Ward

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

when I introduced you, and this is something you and I talked about before, is that you see a shift from core call called it search and retrieve to solve my problem. So maybe describe what you mean by that and you know, what what's the significance of that, right?

From Search and Retrieve to Solve My Problem 05:45  

Len Ward

So it's dramatic. For the last twenty five years, everything we've done in marketing and business, every business model has been built on somebody searching for your they have a problem, right? And then they go on the internet and then they search for a solution. So they're you know, they're reading blogs, they're watching videos, they're gathering a bunch of assets, and then they are taking that back and they're trying to make whether it's a business decision, whether they're gonna make doing a personal decision.

And they're reading and condensing all that information. And then what they do is they go in and they fill out a form to have somebody contact them, maybe they place a phone

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

call, and then they go through a rabbit hole of doing more research. Where we are

Michael Hartmann

Well so so it's been so so before you go, like it just

Michael Hartmann

occurred to me like that's actually not fundamentally that much different than what I did when I was in high school or college, where I'd go to the library, I'd have something and I would

Len Ward

Yes. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

instead of it doing it online, I was doing it through the card catalog or the microfiche listings, etc., right? It's it's it's fundamentally not that much different than that. It was just it just shifted

Image 8  

Michael Hartmann

from the the the environment in which I was doing it.

Len Ward

Yeah, you actually just described the era pre the internet, which is a hundred percent

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

right. And it's funny because I think that a lot of the people that are panicking about AI right now, and I'll get into the solve my problem. If you if you pay attention to the history of what's going on, this is just an evolution. You know, everybody's, you know, well, it's revolution, or is it an evolution? You know, like, what, you know, because they call the internet a revolution, and it was. But we have reached a point, I think, now, where there's so much information coming at humans that we want to.

Pose a problem to you and we want you to solve it. Like we're not, I don't want to read your blogs, I wanna read your white papers. I'm not maybe I'll watch some of your video clips, I'll do that. But they don't want to go through a two, three week process of trying to come up with a decision. Even if it's an instantaneous decision, like let's just say they were arrested and you're looking for, like, you know, a criminal attorney or your tooth cracked and you're looking for, you know, you're just or something's broken in house.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

We're at the stage now where people wanna go to something and they wanna have an answer given to them right away.

So the minute ChatGPT was put in front of an individual, or Grok or Claude, you know, which is anthropic, you and or Gemini, which is Google, you want

Michael Hartmann

Yep.

Len Ward

and posed a question and it immediately came back with an answer. It didn't come back with websites. It didn't come back with, hey, read this. It's like, no, this is your answer. So that is where we are at right now from a business standpoint. And that changes everything fundamentally. It changes sales, it changes marketing, it changes everything where now our entire process is.

What's problems do we solve opposed to how do we work people in a funnel? It's it's so it's a very, very different approach.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, I mean, I know just personally, I mean, I obviously use the LLMs for business related stuff, but on a personal standpoint, like I I think of the different things that I've used it to do research on something where I like want to figure out, we had a deep freezer that went bad last summer and I didn't want to pay to get a replacement and I was hoping I like I gave it like here's what the symptoms are, you know, what do you think the options are how can can I solve can I fix myself if I'm not very handy, right? And it walked me through what to do. I did the same thing with we've got a kitchen drain situate. Like there's all these things where I could have spent a lot of time doing my own research. And this just shortened that, you know, I still and this is maybe where we were talking about, like where people are viewing this as different, maybe than other changes in the past. is that. it I mean in some ways it does feel like it's we were talking right before we started recording, like how I feel like these a

the L L Ms in particular feel like they're leap frogging each other or in your I think you said that maybe you think they're narrowing in on spaces where they're gonna be stronger than others, but I I mean I'm like I still had to do my own sort of analysis of an assessment of what it did I did I trust what it was, did I clarify, right? I'm still finding I have to do that. Yeah.

Len Ward

You mean clarifying

Len Ward

what you're putting in there?

Michael Hartmann

Clarifying what I'm putting in there or clear just making sure I understand what it's given me - so I can go, do I does it make sense? Does it not make sense? Right. It still requires my ability to evaluate it.

Len Ward

Yeah, it it does. And I think that goes directly back to when you were searching on the internet fifteen years ago. You'd have

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

to go through there's been blue links, you went through five that were garbage because they were getting spammed there. And then two that were like, okay, they're good. And three that are like, wow, this really gives you my answer. I still

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Len Ward

think we're there, but that took years. I think this is gonna take a year before it really you're gonna pose a question and these LLMs are gonna

Len Ward

You know, people forget like a lot of times it's like you sit down on a on a search engine and people would type in and a lot of times search engine didn't know you who you were because you weren't logged in. Even when you were logged in, it didn't remember a lot of stuff. It's only recently that it remembered a lot of your search history, meaning last five, six, seven years. But the LLMs, if you have that on your phone, you have that on your computer, it's gonna memory know what you are and it's gonna know your idiosyncrasies and it's gonna know the question you asked, it's gonna put the pieces together. So

It's truly getting to know you as a person. So you will in the next eighteen months find the answers, find yourself less and less - digging through it and trying to prompt it and reading through it to the point of you almost feel you're like talking to a human being because it's like they're giving you the direct answer right away. So that's this is coming.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

The Role of AI in Personal Problem Solving

Michael Hartmann

No, I mean, you know, again, talking about right before we started recording, like how I use have you started using in my case I was using ChatGPT, not that it matters that much, but I was using it I'd use it to prepare for these recording sessions. And the first, you know, dozen, a couple of dozen, right? I was much more looking at did it get it right, did it did it match how I wanted it to do in the past, where I did manually. And now I just it's it's gotten good enough because it knows me.

already like I've given it feedback where I did something I didn't like and it's it's just continued to get better to the point where I really don't have to do much in the way of reviewing it. I still do. And I I I don't I don't put the same amount of effort into it as I did six months ago, three months ago. I think that's

Len Ward

And that's I you made a good point because I think that's where we're beginning to fall off. Too many people are letting it solve the problem for them. Too many people are letting it do all the work. And the biggest question I'm asked is, well, AI is going to surpass everything. Is it? Because from what I understand, nothing's ever surpassed a human mind. And the human mind was what created this thing. So if the human mind is now starting to stay lockstep with what's this is teaching it all the way through and really kind of following all the way through.

That is the single fastest way AI will not jump a human being. You know, it's

Len Ward

You made a good point because I think that's where we're beginning to fall off. Too many people are letting it solve the problem for them. Too many people are letting it do all the work. And the biggest question I'm asked is, well, AI is going to surpass everything. Is it? Because from what I understand, nothing's ever surpassed a human mind. And the human mind was what created this thing. So if the human mind is now starting to stay lockstep with what's this is teaching it all the way through and really kind of following all the way through.

That is the single fastest way AI will not jump a human being. You know, it's not and now some people have trouble, you know, trauma or problems learning and digesting information a little differently. But if you train these things to teach you how to digest information, how to teach you and say, here's how I want to present it to me, you're gonna find yourself maybe not as smart as this, but it's not outrunning you. And I think that's the thing we have to drive home in like people are, well, it's gonna get rid of school. No, school's gonna move into you how to you know.

teach children or teach, you know, college kids, whatever, how to work with these things. And that's the biggest thing, the biggest threat I see from AI right now. And my can my concern is that people are just letting it do its job for you. And they're just write this for me, write this email. And I see these emails. I've actually read these blog posts. I've seen the stuff. I'm like, you literally forgot to say it literally prompted you a question down below. You cut and paste and put it in your blog. Like, you know, so and

Michael Hartmann

Right. ^

Len Ward

We need to get much better at being gatekeepers of what goes out there 'cause it's really bad right now and you're gonna get rid if you keep doing this, you know, because your boss will I'm paying

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. ^ Well

Len Ward

you? ^

Michael Hartmann

so it's interesting. I have kids who are in high school, college age, and we I've it's funny 'cause my oldest in particular is like, nobody in our age range likes these things, right? We

Len Ward

Mm.

Michael Hartmann

know that we have to do them partially because it's like a job they think it's tak you know, making it harder to get jobs. I'm not like I'm not totally convinced of that. I think there's a component of that for sure. ^ But what they're saying, what he said is funny he's like -

It's all the the boomers and Gen X people that are all excited about it. And I'm like, yeah, but like my like my perspective, kind of I've kind of straddled those two generations a little bit. I'm on kinda on the cusp, uh, is I feel like it maybe this is where you take is too, right? This is, yes, does this feel like a change that's pretty significant? Yes. Is it moving faster than say the internet or other things like that? Yes. ^

But it's to me, like I'm still not sure I m convinced that it's as big of a change as some people are making out to be. And then when it comes to the job front, I think a lot of companies are using it as an excuse for poor poor management, poor performance that could be attributed to anything else.

Len Ward

^ I agree. ^ And I think the biggest people who are susceptible to losing their jobs are the large companies. ^ The large companies are gonna find themselves have finding it to be nearly impossible to compete with the one and two person shops up to five person shops because they truly understand AI. The fundamental reason why large companies are you're why you're gonna

Len Ward

lose your job at a large company ^ or why large companies are going to start missing earnings and potentially close and do you know, people are like, that's never gonna happen. Really? Go ask Eastman Kodak what happened ^ with with it.

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Len Ward

With you know, cameras. ^ So ^ is because businesses are using AI ^ to speed up processes. That's all they're doing. They're not using

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

it to solve problems and break bottlenecks to get the client's answer faster. That's an entire shift in how you operate a business. ^ So to me, ^ that's the biggest problem we're facing with it right now. We're just trying to speed everything up. So ^ it's not that you're gonna lose your job. I think you're gonna start burning humans out. ^

You know, I'm we see it right now with the amount of AI

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

that we're doing right now and that we're trying to implement for clients. ^ You know, I'll never forget, you know, Amy who works with us. ^ you know, I'll never and Amy's, you know, very, very bright. You know, she used to run over analytics before AI. She's, I feel like I'm doing 10 times the amount of work that I did for which regular standard marketing. ^ And we all agree it's the same thing because you're constantly building. It's a lot of work. But I, I do think though that ^ you know, that shift is coming. And I think -

The minute you dig down deep and you start seeing what it's doing, ^ you almost can't unsee what you've seen. So when we kind of go

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

up to the front lines and see it and come back, I'm like, ^ I don't think people understand what's coming. They're like, I'm gonna lose my job. No, your company's gonna close. Don't worry about losing

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

your job. You know, so my advice to people, and I don't mean this go counter against businesses. ^ Take every living moment you have right now that you're not home ^ and start interacting with these things. And if you've ever had

Len Ward

an idea or ever had a concept, ^

Start working with it ^ and kind of go with it and let it help you all the way through. Protect yourself. ^ Because even if you can't get hired, let's just say these companies start falling, you're gonna find yourself with a business or you're gonna find yourself with a stream of revenue because AI helped you out. It's time to start doing that opposed to worrying if you're gonna lose your

Michael Hartmann

funny you're the ^ when you when you said like it's hard to use like it takes me back to the the guy I went camp w camping and hunting with one time who made the mistake of looking at the ingredients in the chorizo. ^ Yeah you don't want to know that ^

Len Ward

There you go. That's a good analogy.

Michael Hartmann

so okay so ^ you you touched on this a little bit but like you this whole like ^ search and retrieve model right ^

Michael Hartmann

who are searching for products, technologies, whatever, right, would have to go do search, visit sites, ^ analyze that, ask for somebody to call them, and so on. ^ Are so are you ^ how much do you think that's gonna shift over to being done ^ on LLMs or other AI platforms and that infrastructure as opposed to I guess this is like the agent, ^ like the buyer agent kind of model? Like, ^ and it and if you think that's gonna shift, like how ^ ^

What what kind of impact does that will that have on companies when it comes to their website, the content they have? Does SEO even matter? Right. And other kind of both I guess primarily on their own ch channels, if you will. ^

Len Ward

So I think within five years that shift will be dramatic. I think in five years' time, ^ you will look at Google like the yellow pages. ^ Like how we literally look like you were see somebody looking through the yellow pages right now, you would find it really funny. ^ I do think there's good they're gonna have a contingent of people that will still use it, still use search engines because that's how they process information. Again, we can't let's not forget how humans process information. It's very different for a lot of people. They may like to read, they may like to digest things ^ and go from there. But I I think that ^

Within five years' time, it's all gonna change because ^ you're gonna have a much more educated individual showing up to you. Like you made a point

Len Ward

where you, you know, checked YouTube and you looked at a couple of things to fix one of the things you said in your house. I forget exactly what it was.

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

But - so you're gonna show up at a plumber, you're gonna show up at a lawyer, you're gonna show up B2B manufacturer, ^ and you're gonna know ^ just as much, if not more, than any of the salesperson in there. You're gonna know pricing, you're gonna know specs, you're gonna know inventory, you're gonna know exactly, you know, when you can get the stuff in. ^

You're gonna sit down and talk with a lawyer, and while the lawyer is always gonna be smarter than human law because it what they do, they're not gonna like be able to tell you something that you have not seen already, you know, on LLM. So ^ businesses aren't preparing for this. They're not ^ preparing for in my what I like to call as the last 10 yards to get to the end zone. You're not ready for that. ^ And I think that's the thing they have to start preparing for. What do you do when an intelligent client comes in? Like, what is your sales process to be ready? ^

For like when the person comes in and is, like, I'm 90% of the way there, what can you do to get me there? Those are the type of things you have to start looking at. And you have to start, you know, it's not start, you know, sitting around and well, what type of content do we market? What product do we do?

Len Ward

Once AI understands your business and it's listening on your website, listening internally, which are called sensors or chatbots if you want call it, at that

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

point it's going to tell you what to do. ^ So to me, ^ that's where I think like the fundamental shift is coming. And I ^ would.

Maybe 10% of clump companies understand it. ^ even when you hear like CNBC talking or you read a Wall Street report, because you know my background is on Wall Street way back in the day, I still have, you know, have my finger on the pulse. I listen, I'm like, these companies have no idea what they're talking about. They're not even, ^ they're just making it up about AI. Like they're literally making it up. And they're just like, we're just gonna speed the process up. We're gonna do this and do that. ^ Speeding the process up. We're gonna do this and do that. ^ Speeding the process up is going to make you fall. Changing the fundamental business model and how you respond to a client is gonna make you succeed. ^

That's why I do think the smaller shop is going to win out because they're going to understand the solve my problem world. So the day of the behemoth company, which is America, you're going to see a bit of that change. We're coming into a dawn of where the smaller company is going to rise. ^

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.  

Len Ward

what does that mean for Wall Street and stocks and all that? I don't really know. ^

Michael Hartmann

You're right.

Len Ward

but what I do know is that the rise of, I guess, say a five-person shop who truly understands the solve my problem world, ^ opposed to a company that is

still pouring tens of millions of into blogs, ^ ridiculous ads, ^ lead generation, all of that. I'm not saying you shouldn't be doing that now, ^ but ^ if you're not starting to migrate your money over to building an actual AI company, ^ in five years' time, you're you're in trouble. ^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, you're saying like a said an AI company. Do you mean like an AI enabled company? Or do you truly mean like Yeah.

Len Ward

AI first company, which them almost like a digit

Len Ward

You know, like like our we have bring our company to the digital age. We've all heard companies

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

say that, which is funny. Digital age back you remember this ten years ago, is having a website. ^ Now you're

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

in a digital age. But - now it is - installing AI, ^ whether you want to call it LLMs, whether you want to call it platforms, whether you want to call it vibe coding, ^ around certain places where they're typically used to be bottlenecks, ^ and you actually are breaking those bottlenecks with AI, ^ that's what it means to become an AI first company, not ^

We have Claude and we have Chat GPT and we're just speeding up blog posts. That's that's this just you work like I said, working clients or customers adapt. That's ^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, like I've heard some companies talk about, you know, ^ employing AI as ^ a to get the benefit of a time dividend, which is I think is what you're saying. Like you're they're speeding up processes, but it doesn't make necessarily make them better, especially when it comes to are they gonna

Len Ward

be • better at producing products that meet customers' needs and meet it and solving customers' problems. I think is is that kind of a way of saying what you're saying. ^

Len Ward

Yeah. Yeah. I I I yeah, that's yeah, I kind of I I think that's what it is. And I think •• maybe if I'm hearing you right, I think • inherently I think humans are never gonna take their hands off the wheel. I do agree with that. I think everyone worries about AI taking over the world. I just don't see humans •• just • humans still want a human operating, still humans still want a a pilot piloting a plane. •

You know, humans still want major decisions happening. But there's a lot of decisions and processes in business where you don't need a human on board, middle management, like thing clogging up processes, like we gotta go through five different, you know, approvals to get it done. I think that's where AI is gonna start breaking those bottlenecks and things are gonna get quicker. And that's how you get to an answer quicker. • You know, and I just think • it's it's funny 'cause I get frustrated talking to companies about search and retrieve to solve my problem and then •

It's funny because you you get buying in and they get it and then ten minutes later they're back in the search and retrieve world. But what ^ type of content we stop. Get off the horse and let's get into the car, you know, because everything's changed. ^

Michael Hartmann

Mm.

Len Ward

• so but I think, yeah, that that's kind of what it is. So it's really, really understanding to get to a customer's answer as fast and ethically and correctly as we can,

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Len Ward

what is stopping us from getting there. • •

Michael Hartmann

Okay.

The Impending Shift in Google's Market Position  

Michael Hartmann

^ So okay, I'm gonna shift gears a little bit here, but yeah, I wanna go back to you said paid when we talked that you have you have predicted, and I assume this is public, right? That that you think Google could miss earnings • in the • in the near not too distant future. So, you • know, what makes you believe that and you know, what had do you think that'll what what kind of impact do you think that'll have on • marketers who are still relying on search for •Legion.

Len Ward

When they

Len Ward

• when they miss earnings, I think for the very first time, ^ I think business owners who have not embraced AI • will for the very first time realize that Google's not as infallible as it used to be, because it was for the better part of 20 years. • I think they'll realize that. ^ and I think that will really fundamentally rock a lot of what's going on. Because here's what you have to think about. Technically, last quarter, there's Google's telling you how it was a blowout quarter, but the reality of it was a blowout quarter because of stock they put out there for sale. •

So if you dig deep into their numbers, like the Wall Street, I forget the reporter did, ^ it's their quarter was not that good. • ^ they think more

Michael Hartmann

Mm. ^

Len Ward

they keep telling you how your search is improving. No, it's not. And they keep telling you how more money's coming in the pay per click. No, you're charging more money. I doesn't mean more money's coming in. You're charging more. • Most businesses right now are starting to allocate money away from Google and they're starting to try to identify different types of things, influencer marketing. •

You know, video clips, TikTok, things like that, because that is where

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

a lot of the new buying public is at. You

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

have to remember with Google, it's I love Google. It's it's built my business, it's helped pay my mortgage, like it's been a great

Michael Hartmann

Sure.

Len Ward

company. ^. but there's nothing they have that's defensible. • And everybody says, well, they have the reach. Okay, well, you mean they have Gmail and they have okay, great. So give me one product that Google's created • that AI could not replicate right now. • Right now.

It literally could. And if it couldn't, it's within 18 months of being able to create an entire email infrastructure, an entire cloud infrastructure, ^ an entire

Here’s the transcription from the 10 images, in order. I’ve kept the wording and transcription quirks as shown rather than polishing the language.

Len Ward

pay-per-click structure, even a potential • video structure. So YouTube and all of that, and and Google may have the dominant search engine and the dominant both search engines. But ^ as people start building their own things, • as they understand how to market the right way, because they're declining on influencer marketing, yeah, Google is going to miss earnings. I don't think there's any question because •

Everyone's like, well, they have a moat. No, they don't. I don't think there's one business in the world, unless you're anthropic or chat GPT, that has a moat. And it's hard for us to ^, you know, accept that. • But I think that's where we are. • if

The Rapid Evolution of AI and Marketing Strategies  

Len Ward

^

Michael Hartmann

Mm.

Len Ward

and that's what if you haven't, and that's why I keep coming back, you cannot see what you've seen. The minute you've interact a vibe coding product to say, hey, replicate Google for me, • you'd be surprised how quick it comes back. Now, is it right? No. • But • just to even be there is mind-blowing to me. So anybody that's constantly pouring money into these companies thinking, they're they're immune. I I don't think you're paying attention. And I definitely think you have not really read up on how far along AI is. •

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. • And and it keeps it's moving so so rapidly, it's hard to keep up. • So when you when you talk to your ^ your marketers and clients, ^ if they're still relying on traditional like I don't even know why I call it traditional, but • contemporary traditional lead generation models, right? ^ what like what are you telling them and like what areas of that model are are breaking down ^ faster than others and what do you like? •

What are you suggesting that they do now? •

Len Ward

The first thing that's falling down the fastest, which breaks my heart because I am truly an SEO at heart. That's how I started this entire thing. I mean, I am yeah, I am an absolute fan of SEO. I actually enjoy

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

doing SEO. I enjoy old school SEO. ^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

you know, it's just it was always a good time because you you always like seeing the results of what you did.

Michael Hartmann

Back in the day I I wrote for within an internal company, I I wrote like writing for search. Training. Yeah, yeah. ^

Len Ward

^ Yeah. Yeah. And ^ interlinking and just the right meta tags,

Len Ward

the right backlinks, and • I I just loved it. ^ I thought it was good. But ^ SEO is clearly in the end of days. And SEO, everyone's like, well, it's going to live in the AI world. No, it's • not. Like, I come on. I'm I'm a twenty-five-year veteran of SEO. No, it's not. It's I I look at it right now, I'm looking at SEO, all right, • if you want to call some Shima code and stuff like that, SEO, I get it, but not the traditional SEO blocking and tackling that we're used to. • So I think •

The organic leads that you typically used to get, I think that's starting to dry up. Organic traffic is beginning to pull back. ^ I even think

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

think the pay per clicks beginning to hurt a little bit, because again, if we're moving to solve my problem, • opposed to, you know, you know, search and retrieve, remember a billion users a week, just your Chat GPT alone is a billion users. There's eight billion people on the planet. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Is it really that high now? I didn't realize it. Okay, wow.

Len Ward

Eight billion people on the planet. So look how quick they're closing the gap on this. ^ that's crazy, right? So

Michael Hartmann

That's crazy. Cause

Michael Hartmann

^ that's I mean, that's twelve and a half percent ^ of the world population, which includes • like all people. So there's gonna be a big cohort at at the young and old ages that probably don't use it much, if at all. ^ And then ^ when you've got just general people who don't have the infrastructure in their wherever they happen to live, right? So ^ it twelve and a half percent is probably I like in terms of like the population of people are likely to use it, it's probably ••

You like think it's like twenty percent of the that's crazy. Like ^ •

Len Ward

Yeah, that's what I mean. Like I I don't

Len Ward

you hear and then everybody's like, Well, they're racing to build out data centers. We all want data centers, but yet they're sitting on Chat GPT asking a question in their cars. They just got done a town hall complaining about a data center. Like where where do you think this is coming from? So ^• got a landscaper here. Sorry, he's like out of my office. Sorry about that. ^ Yeah, I mean it's yours.

Michael Hartmann

I hear. That's the this is the this is like this is real life here, right, folks. So I was surprised

Michael Hartmann

my dog there was somebody at my front door. I thought's thought my dog was gonna start barking. So •

The Shift from Traditional SEO to Influencer Marketing 30:43  

Len Ward

This guy's finding a need to leaf blow our office windows here, and I don't really know why. ^ there's grass up this high in building. ^

Michael Hartmann

All right. We'll power through. •

Len Ward

Yeah. So, • but I think so when what I'm telling clients now from a marketing perspective is you have to start. This is where we wrote a blog post about three years ago. We're at the intersection of AI and influencer marketing. • And influencer

Michael Hartmann

Mm.

Len Ward

marketing means you need to start thinking of your company as a micro influencer in your industry. •

Because what's going to happen is people are going to have a problem solved on an LLM. • And then what they're going to do, like have it all the way through. • Then if they want to work with you, they're going to go on your Instagram and look at a reel. Look at your story. They're going to go to LinkedIn and watch a video. They're going to go to YouTube Shorts and take a look at everything. Because that's how we're starting to digest it. And that's how we're making decisions. • And it's quick and it's fast. So I tell companies, • if you have not • thought about having somebody walk around with a camera and filming, just you filming, just you, just you doing business. You don't need to do these big

Michael Hartmann

Does doesn't

Michael Hartmann

have to be highly curated and all that kind of stuff.

Len Ward

Yeah.

Len Ward

You'll you'll you'll find yourself, • you know, • you know, really adapting to the new user. So that's what I'm trying to tell people. Like, • stop having these hardcore conversations about SEO and all this other stuff, and really start moving your money • into you being an influencer, at least your brand being an influencer. ^

Michael Hartmann

Mm.

Len Ward

and AI. And that's kind of where the marketing world is moving towards. And that's where I can we'll eventually kind of start touching on the agent-to-agent marketing, but that's the shift that's happening.

Michael Hartmann

Do you think the do you think that's

Michael Hartmann

does you think that's true for both B to B and B to C? Or do you think it's • is one ahead of the other? I assume B to C is ahead on this kind of stuff. • versus B to B, but •

Len Ward

On AI, B to B is ahead of B to C. When it comes to influencer marketing, B to C is vastly ahead of B to B. So

Michael Hartmann

^ okay. So it is that

Michael Hartmann

that makes sense • to me. Yeah, that • that's interesting. ^ Yeah, so you bring up brought up agent to agent, right? Well, like, that seems like • I've • it's funny. I I think about a year ago • everyone was posting on LinkedIn about here's my best practice on • you know, how to write a write a prompt for chat you know, ^ L L and those have like completely disappeared. ^

Right. ^

Len Ward

There we go.

Michael Hartmann

and I don't know if it's because people just got more comfortable or if it was just a bunch of bullshit or some combination of those or something else, but it's they're gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ^

Len Ward

Well bullshit. It was a hundred percent bullshit. But anyway, guys, yeah. ^

Michael Hartmann

the other but I've now started seeing I'm starting to see more and more of this, like that eventually like • there's gonna be agents that are doing the • buyer research and stuff. And if a in in and some some ways I guess some especially B to B companies, ^ probably B to C too, • they'll have what they call agents, right? • Like ^ like chatbots, right? That seems like I don't know if you call that an agent or not, but like that ^ but they're gonna have that. So is it do you really believe that • I don't I don't actually well I haven't experienced having an AI agent that's gonna do my • searching and stuff. ^ but what like •

Are you seeing that actually happening? And then or if not, like, do you think it's close? Do you think • are we • months away, years away? •

Len Ward

No, it's here. ^

Michael Hartmann

Okay. •

Len Ward

so there are companies that are building agents and some of the agents are pretty powerful. They're strong. ^ but here's my caveat, because there's a lot of people that are worried, well, we to start building agents, do this, do that. • Relax. Because what's happening right now, if you work within Claude • or if you work within ChatGPT, they are actually helping you build the agents. I think we're months away

Michael Hartmann

Mm.

Len Ward

from where you're gonna tell it to build a specific agent and it's gonna build the entire thing for you. ^ So a lot of people are worried about MCPs and are all this. ^

you know, verbiage I can throw out at you. But we're

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

moving to the world of ^ what the ultimate goal ^ of ChatGPT and Anthropic, they used to say is to make, you know, ^ intelligence free. That was their thing. Like meaning it, you and they were going to build it all for you. You were just going to pay to use it and work within it and all that. So

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Len Ward

their goal is to make you creating an ^ your company's creating agents, like just basically understanding what the business process is and then working through it. And then they can release an agent. ^ You're already hearing of the stories ^.

You probably heard of a weekend where these agents are getting out of their ^ own ^ and they're coordinating with each other, which is concerning, you know. ^ ^ and they're hacking in the companies. That is a very, very concerning thing. So

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. ^

Len Ward

right, so it's a matter of time before ChatGPT ^ and Anthropic, which is Claude ^ and Gemini, release this type of capability where you're creating your own

Len Ward

stuff. ^ So ^ when you go to agent-to-agent marketing, yes, we are we are at the dawn ^ of where you're gonna have your phone. ^

You're gonna have your own personal agent, whatever it may be. And I think it'll be within one of those LLMs. ^ And it's gonna know when you need to, you know, tune up your car before you know it. It's gonna know

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

when you need blood work before you know it. It's gonna know so much

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

and it's gonna start setting appointments for you. It's gonna start vetting maybe ^ mechanics for you. You know, you've you've been you keep complaining about your home, needing a, you know, new paint. ^ It hears you talking. ^

And what's gonna happen is the minute you say, Hey, I think I'll I get a quote for paint, it's already got five quotes that's pulling back saying, I want you to work with one of these five companies because they have the right financing, they're worked on homes like and they know you. So •

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Len Ward

here's what I tell people all the time in the marketing world how the hell ^ in any way, shape, or form, do you try to market that? How do you build a buyer's journey when it's agent when ^ that agent's com competing with the paint company's agent? You ^ I don't even know where that's gonna go. So ^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

And then and I saw somebody post some or on a LinkedIn post ^ recently where somebody brought up something that I hadn't really even like in the back of my mind I think it would have been obvious, but I hadn't really brought to the forefront, which is ^ with all this like vibe coding and stuff like that, like if I was a ^ if I was a hacker, I would be salivating, right? Because it's like all the

Len Ward

yeah, ^ yeah.

Michael Hartmann

exposed ^ because you don't know how to build something that's got the right kind of security ^ built into it. ^ I like I used to ^ like just because I thought it was annoying avoid ^ two factor authentication and now I've like if I don't like I will do it on everything if I can because I just

Len Ward

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

• I'm worried about that kind of stuff. • It's part of why I haven't really built a lot of like automation kinds of things, whether you call them agents or whatever, ^ with •

some of these platforms because I don't really want them to have access to all my emails and all my calendar and like I like I just • maybe I'm just not very trusting. ^ •

Len Ward

No, I think I think you're I think that you're coming back to what we said earlier about the humans aren't going to take their hands off the wheel. I I

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

think that's what it is. And ^ even security, and I'm a big proponent of I do think the man, IT and cybersecurity is coming into their golden era. They really

Len Ward

are. I mean, there's no doubt.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

But ^ I think what's different is that they are going to be building agents whose sole job is to literally stop hackers from coming in. So it's a very, very different. ^ You're

The Importance of Critical Thinking in AI Implementation

Len Ward

not going to have need to

Michael Hartmann

^ interesting.

Len Ward

You know, you're not gonna need to know this like ^ crazy in-depth ^ understanding of IT and cybersecurity. I think what's you're just gonna need to know the process of how they hack. ^ and again again, I'm not in that, but I would say my prediction is gonna be that I think • the next ^ battle line, and it's gonna be a sustained battle line, is gonna be agents. That and and it's gonna be dramatic, meaning companies rolling out agents, you know, IT, and it's just gonna be ^ and there's a lot of them. And again, •

Len Ward

When you hear these stories about them hacking places and things like that, pay attention because it's it is a serious, serious concern. ^ These agents are a problem. •

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

No, I think that's one of and ^

I mean the other piece of this that and I think you and I touched on this a little bit when we talked before, and I've really come to believe that ^ like the humans not letting go. Part of that is because we have to exercise judgment • with • the things, • not only in terms of like what do we have it send it off to do, but also evaluate what the • imp you know, what it • produced or came back with. ^• my fear, ^ and I've I think I've set talked about this publicly too, is

Yeah, ha I mentioned already, right? I kids who are in the high school college years and ^ you know, I think our we've tried to do our best to ^ give our kids a foundation to be able to • questions things ^ and analyze things and exercise • judgment and ^• but in general, I'm not sure that the last ^ generation or two ^ in the US in particular

Right, have had an education that has built their ability to critically think. ^ So that's my concern. ^

Len Ward

your your concern is warranted. Yeah. ^

Michael Hartmann

^ So

Len Ward

• I I think that's where Gen X rolls in. ^ So I I you know, Gen X, whatever, you know, and boomers to a point, but I do believe Gen X is probably going to be the most important part of AI. ^ And the reason I say it is this, and this is getting to the critical thinking. Because

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

• for you to truly succeed • and make AI work for your company, whatever it may be, or even if you're doing a personal project. ^

You have to truly understand the business processes that are taking place. You have to understand • how business works. You have to understand how that business works. You have to understand all the components. And the people who typically understand that from A to Z are the ones that have been working in the industry 25 to 30 years. ^ That's the

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

ones that truly understand it. The mistake you're going to make is try to hand over ^ your AI project, you know, to maybe, like you just said, one of the young generations who have not been taught how to critically think the right way. ^ And you're going to let them come in and build it out. This is not

nineteen ninety eight or two thousand one where your nephew can build a website and you're gonna hire them to build a website. That's not how this works. This is way more powerful. You have to put

Michael Hartmann

Right. Yeah.

Len Ward

somebody in charge who understands the processes because then they know how to talk to the AI. Then they understand what's getting built. Okay, that does solve the process. And then ^ they can turn around to the juniors behind them and say, ^ This is how I got there ^ and really emphasize what you just said, critical thinking and what I like to say, I don't care what anybody tells me. They are never going to be able to rationalize these things. That is a human element. ^

And to my thing,

Michael Hartmann

Mm-hmm.

Len Ward

it's when you teach them that, ^ then what's gonna happen is the generation behind us is gonna be like, Hey, if I'm not critically thinking, if I'm not looking at this rationally, ^ this isn't the right product. So that's why I think • I'm not trying to be age biased, you know, I know I'm a Gen X guy, but if somebody walks in and is like, We're gonna let this twenty two year old kid run AI, you're making a big mistake. ^ You know, not because one two year old kid is just

Michael Hartmann

^ I

Yeah, I mean I'm sure there there

Michael Hartmann

I'm sure there are outliers there where that there are people who yeah, right. ^

Len Ward

yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

and and it goes the other way too, right? There are gonna be people who are ^ Gen X ^ age that ^ I wouldn't want running it either. ^ right. ^

Len Ward

no, yeah, I agree. I just mean but like it's almost like I think ^ what I probably should reframe that. What AI ^ can't overcome is experience. ^ So identify the

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

individual who's got the most experience. And that twenty five year old may have the most experience. That fifty

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

five year old may have most experience, but • that who should be leading your AI initiative right now, not somebody because you think they're technically inclined. If you don't understand business,

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

AI's irrelevant, • you know?

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, you know, I • think this is ^ something I come back to all the time when a when it when a ^ part of me, part of critical thinking is evaluating trade-offs, right? 'Cause there's • and ^ you know, • virtually unlimited directions you could go with something like this. And you could ^ and • the question is like where do you where do you start? Where do you you know, how do you make the decision of • I could do this, but that means I miss out on this other thing and •

There's not a right answer. And I think that's what to me like this is maybe adjacent to the critical thinking piece, which is, ^ you know, • one of the other sort of downsides of • current • education is this ^ you know, • you're told something, you regurgitate it, right? That's ^ standardized testing and things like that. Standardized testing's been around, so I don't want to totally discount that. But •• a lot of times ^

I I the variant I've heard like so and this is gonna I don't wanna get into a political thing, but there's • there's a well-known political commentator who has said in the past, right, facts don't care about your feelings. • And it really bothers me because ^ I • don't think that there are always facts that you can agree to, right? 'Cause it's fundamentally • some perception ^ and • you could have a belief ^ that is based on you know you what you assume and things like that and •

But it like ultimately like we are all making judgments whether we know it or not. And I don't know if we're doing it consciously. And I think that like that bit

Image 1  

Michael Hartmann

there are like evaluating ^ the trade offs between different paths you could take or decisions you could make or projects you could do or where you invest your money, like all those things • that requires a fundamentally different kind of skill than I think a lot of this or the • younger generations have been taught. • Not to their it's not their fault either. •

Len Ward

Well, I I agree. It's not their fault. And I think what's happened is that you're looking at, you know, settlers now in the digital era where you and I are more pioneers. And we were we're pre-pioneers. We remember the days when, you know, the Chuck Wagon. I mean, so we're we're

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah.

Len Ward

way back. So • we were the one last generation that saw pre-computers. There was a time when nobody had a computer in a house. You were I no nobody had a computer anywhere. ^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Right.

Len Ward

• you know, so and then when we got the computer, you know, which wasn't even really computer, was a text instrument thing. You put a cartridge in it, did

Image 2  

match for you. Like so.

Michael Hartmann

Yep.

Len Ward

Then you got

So we saw all that. That's why I just think Gen X is and the boomers are very and I know that everybody wants to crush us, but • we're a very rare breed where • we saw more technological revolution advancements than every anybody on the human race. ^ That's

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Len Ward

why I think there's nobody better equipped • to take a look at what's going on right now to say, Hey, • we remember all the way back then. ^ And when the failures happened all through these advancements, this is if you go, there's always a common theme. And it's like you said, we didn't educate the right way.

We didn't teach them the right way. So

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah. ^

Len Ward

I'm with you. My fear right now is that they're so dependent on technology. ^ • that it's it is what if there I know we're really wanna get off topic here, but what if there is a cyber attack? What if there is something? Like • I could live without my phone for a week or two, I'd be okay. • I don't know if these kids would be okay. My kids would panic. ^ you know. So and that

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, my son the

Michael Hartmann

my my son worked for a car dealership over the summer and somebody brought in a a standard transmission vehicle and he was able to like he got in and they said, Go ahead and try it and he moved it, you know, a few feet, but it freaked him out, right? He wouldn't know

Len Ward

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

what to do with the standard transmission. Same thing with technology, right?

Len Ward

Yeah.

Len Ward

No, it's the same thing. But I I • yeah, I think this is a whole • how these kids I don't here's I guess what I'll say is this and maybe you agree or not. I don't think the way the human mind is advanced, because I will say these kids are much smarter than us. Now I'm the first to say • these 25 year olds are so sharp when it comes to stuff like I can't compete with these guys. But

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Len Ward

but • ^ • but what I will say is that I think our education process has not advanced the way the human mind has. ^ And I think we have to try to •

Preparing for the Future: Education and AI in Business

Len Ward

Start thinking how does AI incorporate in that? How is that going to have an impact on the job? And I think you're making a really, really critical point, Michael, where I think a lot of people are paying attention to. • The war to win AI, if you want to call it that, is going to start in the classrooms and how we educate these children all the way, giving them the fundamentals • of business, of life, of so forth, to say no matter what happens in AI, as long as you stick these fundamentals, you're going to be okay. Because nothing's changing the fundamentals of running a business. ^ but I think the digital world. •

The problem is is that we're so used to things happening so quick right now •

Michael Hartmann

that I just don't think education is is doing that at all right now. Let's but I have three kids and I don't say it. ^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, no, I mean I think I'm like just in general, like human evolution has not kept up with the pace of technology change for the last • probably eighty years.

Len Ward

I agree. ^ Yeah. ^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. So ^ well while we wrap up here, ^ because you know, the core audience is marketing ops and revenue operations people, like what what should ^ what should they be ^ doing, especially if they're in a leadership role, ^ to ^ if they're not already ^ like to to kinda •

I'm sure they're all under pressure to quote do AI, right? Whatever that means, right? • What like what should they be doing to make sure that they're not just chasing every little thing or reacting, • say over the next next • twelve, eighteen months? •

Len Ward

So I think you want to go, and my opinion is ^ go all the way to the end and say, well, and I know this sounds like Anthony Robbins, but what is the outcome of the marketing campaign you're trying to get to? ^ And you know, what are the what are we trying at what's trying to happen? • And basically say, what are the bottlenecks that are stopping this client's goal or your your goal, whatever it may be from getting there? And then what can AI do to the break the bottlenecks? ^ How can you solve that customer's problem faster? That doesn't mean more blogs, that doesn't mean more ads, it doesn't mean anything like that. •

What you want to do is basically say, how can I put AI in to get answers quicker? So • that's that and I think Yep. Better answers quicker. Yeah, because you don't want any answers.

Michael Hartmann

Could I could I could I could augment that to say better answers quicker? Yeah.

Len Ward

I think that's actually a very good point. And I think that's the thing you have to look at. Stop looking at AI as something to speed up a process and start looking at AI as the true revolutionary way to answer a problem when done the right way. And the last thing I'll tell you about marketers, • if you are not telling your clients to start really embracing this again,

influencer type marketing world, ^ it is time to start ^ because

Michael Hartmann

Mm.

Len Ward

it is truly becoming a decisive factor in somebody wanting to work with you or not. We're seeing it. A lot of people are seeing it. It I just a quick note, we even had one of our clients where we put a few videos up • and thousands of views we were happening right away. You'd be surprised the appetite for people with your clients being an influencer marketer. And it doesn't mean you have to be out there like • one of Jake Paul or something like that. It just means your brand is the influencer, not the human. ^

Michael Hartmann

^ yeah. ^ Okay. • I'm gonna let the Jake Paul thing go, so

Len Ward

I just grabbed one. I don't really know twenty influence. ^

Michael Hartmann

No, no, no. I just like I'm like,

Michael Hartmann

okay, that's ^ anyway, at least you can get on Netflix then, right? ^ and make a ton of money. Well, hey, Len, such a fun conversation. I appreciate it. ^ if

Len Ward

Thank you.

Michael Hartmann

if folks wanna continue that with you or if keep up with what you're doing or talking about, what's the best way for them to do that? ^

Len Ward

You can just go to Comexis dot com. You can fill out a form. I'm always one that answers the forms. We work with we don't mean you come across as jerks. We work with very select companies, but I am always happy to answer a question. I do get people to inbox me on LinkedIn. You can, you know, request me on LinkedIn. You can always kinda go in and say, Hey, I have a quick question on AI. I have no problem answering questions. I actually really like having a conversation about AI. So if you have one, just reach out to I'll see if I can help you. •

Michael Hartmann

Fantastic. Well appreciate again, Lynn. Thank you. Thanks for ^ thanks for joining us. ^ As always, • thanks for everyone who's been out there supporting us. ^ And ^ if you • you know have ^ any questions or follow up you want to • you have ideas for different topics or anything like that, you can reach out to • Naomi Mike or me and we'd be happy to chat with you. Till next time. Bye everybody. •