Michael Hartmann

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Opscast, • brought to you by MarketingOps.com, powered by all the MoPros out there. I am joined today by Mike, great co-host, • Naomi. Mike. • Hello! •

Naomi

Hello.

Mike Rizzo

What's

Mike Rizzo

up everybody? For those of you watching, we waved. For those of you listening, we waved. •^

Michael Hartmann

•^ Yeah. •^

Naomi

•^ Ha ha •^

Michael Hartmann

That's right. Remember the days when we •^ we would start these things and like I'd have to coach guests. Like when you say something when you when you use body language, you have to • actually say what you did because people wouldn't know because we didn't do video.

Mike Rizzo

Yeah. •^

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, they're like it sometimes it was like people like, •^ thank you, we're not on video. And then

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Mike Rizzo

eventually we were like, • Yeah, but sometimes it matters, you know? And • so we're like, we're going video. • But now, •^ now, • Michael, what are we doing today? •

Michael Hartmann

•^ do we like do we need the drum roll? We have the sound effects we never use. Yeah. •^ There you go. •^ Naomi's got the skills. •

Mike Rizzo

•^ look, •^ Naomi's just got it on cue. She's just like, What is happening? Wait, hang on. I feel like

Naomi

Can you hear that? •^

Naomi

Mm-hmm.

Mike Rizzo

I feel like we have it. Here we go.

Michael Hartmann

She's got

Michael Hartmann

then •^

Naomi

There

Naomi

we go. •^ •

Michael Hartmann

I was wondering how long that was gonna go. •^ so

Mike Rizzo

There it is. Yeah, me too.

Michael Hartmann

I guess the big announcement maybe it is •^ maybe it’s not so big, but the big announcement is this is, at least for now, the last episode of Opscast, at least in its current form. We are taking a step back.

Mike Rizzo

It sure is. There’s no crying

Mike Rizzo

emoji or anything I can put up though.

Michael Hartmann

No,

Michael Hartmann

I'm trying not to I'm trying not to cry. •

Mike Rizzo

•^ Yeah. I'm a little emotional over here. •^ This is it.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. • So it's been it's been crazy. It's it's feels like it's the right time. • You know, it's • I think when you Mike, when you and I first start talking about this, it was • November November, December twenty twenty, something like that. • •

Mike Rizzo

That's •^ That's

Michael Hartmann

•^ Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

bananas.

Naomi

That's crazy.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. So almost six years ago

Naomi

That's crazy.

Michael Hartmann

and then we had our first episode on Jan fifteenth your birthday, right? January fifteenth? Day

Mike Rizzo

It it was the day before my birthday, yeah, yeah.

Michael Hartmann

before your birthday on in twenty twenty one. And like I never •^ if you'd asked me back then, would we like I wasn't even sure we'd make ten episodes. • And here we are at

Mike Rizzo

Right.

Michael Hartmann

you know, • close to two fifty, • five and a half years later. •• It's been a wild ride. • I've you know

Mike Rizzo

Yeah. •^

Mike Rizzo

That's

Michael Hartmann

I've been fortunate enough

Michael Hartmann

to talk to so many great people and you know, the three of us, like it's •^. • I think you guys like •^ you know, professional, • you know, siblings, maybe. Like it although although we were talking about eight we were talking about

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, totally. I feel like we're definitely related.

Naomi

Mm-hmm. •^

Michael Hartmann

eight we're talking about ages earlier. Maybe I'm more like an an uncle, I don't know. •

Mike Rizzo

•^ Yeah, I suppose it's like.

Naomi

Do you have any standouts? •^

Naomi

Do you have any standouts? You you must have like a top three or a top five •• episode

Reflecting on Memorable Episodes 02:49

Naomi

list, you know?

Michael Hartmann

•^ like like s •^

Michael Hartmann

you know what? I really don't. I've thought about this before. I've I've I've talked about there's you know what? •^ there's a couple of things from different ep like different times that •• they come to mind very quickly. Like one of our early early episodes, I still think about this one •^ probably • every week or two, is the one we had with Brandy Sanders. •• And when she described

Mike Rizzo

Mm.

Michael Hartmann

right that like •^ some of the skill sets needed to be really good at marketing ops, and it was •

you know, know how to play chess • and understand human psychology. And I still like I still think that is •^ true. • Maybe more true than ever in this kind of age where and this was all pre AI stuff. So • that's one I think really stuck with me. •^ I think we've talked about this before. Like I'm really proud of some of the things we've done. Like Naomi when you did the takeover, right? We did the all women's one. We've talked about

Naomi

Mm-hmm. That was super fun. •

Michael Hartmann

yeah. • We talked we've talked about, you know, some of the pressures that people are under. •^ •

It's funny, it's not the ones that like • the things that we've talked about, • like • the technology and the analytics and the op you know, campaign operations and • career stuff, like like all those are great, but like it's not those are not the ones that stand out to me. 'Cause I mean I it's not that they're not important and I don't not proud of them. It's just like • the ones where we kind of pushed a little bit, right? Touched on subjects that maybe were a little bit, • you know, tough to bring up or people wouldn't want to talk about I think that's it. Right. That's the really the

The thing I remember from it all. ••

Naomi

There was a couple episodes too where I think some of the guests were nervous because it was their first time • ever doing something like this. And it was really •^ and I found it really heartwarming or great to like be able to offer that plot this platform to them to be able to do that because maybe they may •^ •

be too nervous or anxious to raise their hand at a you know at a bigger event like MOPSA, for example, right? So doing

Michael Hartmann

Right.

Naomi

something like this where they're talking to just like one or two or three people, •^ hopefully that was a stepping stone for them to, you know, get their voice and •

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Naomi

feel a bit more confident. •

Mike Rizzo

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

Yeah. I loved that. We had a few of those a few of those folks. We had we had •^ we had some people come on to tell their story about • you know being •^ being just a •^ not just I don't mean to dismiss it, but like being a mom, right? They were just a they were

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

a full time mom and that was their focus •^ and and then they transitioned into work that was •^ sort of marketing related and •

The show was discovered and and then their career grew and and • they ended up on the show. And, you

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

know, if you've listened for a long time, you know who I'm talking about. Shout out to that individual. And •^ I just think, you know, that was those are the things that stood out to me too, is like • finding •^ ways to allow people to learn from each other and then then you don't •^ •

Mike Rizzo

don't realize it. Like Michael and Naomi and I talk about this all the time. Like, • we know you all are like out there. Well, we don't know, I guess, but we •^ we surmise that you really are listening and paying attention and •^ •

And and there's these I moments occasionally. • I mean, they're very occasional •^ where •^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Rizzo

it's like, • thank you so much for the show, or thanks for that episode, or •^ I built my career after being able to sort of listen to what you were all talking about, or • I got the confidence to speak at my next session because of you know, coming on the show or whatever it was. • •^ you • know, it's a it's a bit like parenting. It's a little thankless • when you do podcasting. •^

Michael Hartmann

•^ Well, no, it's it it's

Michael Hartmann

and it's weird because you really don't know, you know, what's working, what's not working. Because most people just sort of like probably we do too, right? I don't send feedback to

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Image 12  

Mike Rizzo

Totally.

Michael Hartmann

podcasts that I'd listen to. •^ you just said something though that reminded me. So we like speaking of like the superpowers of some of the women we've had on, there was one woman who was a guest on • who • had an infant • in her lap.

the entire episode and I don't know how she did it. • But like

Mike Rizzo

yeah, • I remember that. That's right. That was that

Michael Hartmann

•^ Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

was amazing. And it was like it was nap time and it was like let's just get where I was I I committed

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

to doing this. We're doing this. •^ It was so amazing. •^

Michael Hartmann

I I was I was just like I was blown

Michael Hartmann

away at that because like • I think that like that's right there. Like that is •^ •• it it's •• definitely I mean I don't think there were any men who did that. I think we had one one of the few complaints we had was we had a a a a man on who had a an infant, but the infant was in a like one of those rocking • chair things and it started playing music in the background. They couldn't stop it and • yeah.

Not quite the same. Maybe we powered through it just like we did, but like it's just a different vibe. Like, •^

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, totally.

Michael Hartmann

yeah.

Mike Rizzo

It reminds me of that, •^ for those of you listening, I don't know if you've ever seen the •^ what is it the •^ is it the Hallmark • commercial where it's like • they do fake interviews for a job • and the job is like • it's it's an interview for being a mom. But like the job description •^

Michael Hartmann

•^ I've I've seen one recently, yeah. •^

Naomi

Yes, yes, yes.

Mike Rizzo

It's like it that is hands down, like anchored in my brain for forever. •^ Like

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

it is the most yeah. •^ You have to be on yeah, you have to be able to lift heavy objects. Like, •^

Naomi

Project manager, •^ scheduling assistant, well organized, yeah. •^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

sometimes your client may need you to wake up in the middle of the night and you're gonna have to go into the office and like get the job done. Like, you know,

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

it's just like • all of these, I mean, totally ludicrous things. •^ And the people on the other side were like, •

Michael Hartmann

What are you paying for this? Yeah. W and you don't get paid, right? Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

What is this? Right. Yeah,

Mike Rizzo

yeah. And by the way, like this is the this is pro bono and • it's like, •^ wow, it's just amazing. So yeah, shout

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

out to the moms and • the one especially the ones that came on the show and shared their story with us. That was really, really cool.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah, we had we've had a

Michael Hartmann

couple of people who were really opened up about like mental health challenges, •^ right?

Michael Hartmann

And I think •^

Mike Rizzo

Mm. •^

Michael Hartmann

•• I mean I th I I mean I that we were able to have people on and talk about to those topics because they're • like near and dear to my heart is something like, • 'cause we went through this was • people who've had miscarriages, • right? It's one of these things that I think people don't talk about and it's really, really hard • to deal with and usually you feel like you're the only one and it's like I think •

Like and that, you know, • something that I think is true as a leader is like, you know, I think when I was early in my career, • I think I believed that I could keep my kind of professional life separate from my personal life. Right. And that's like I don't think that's possible really. Right. They kind of intertwine •^ too much. And so

Mike Rizzo

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

I think bringing that to light is is was something that we we did a pretty good job of. •

Naomi

Especially now I think because a lot of

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I

Naomi

people work from home and work remotely. It's not like you're you're there's not as much of a separation between like this is my home and I leave and I go to an office, right? Like a lot of times you're inviting people

Michael Hartmann

Yep. •^

Naomi

into like a private space in your house or your kitchen or your bedroom or your guest room or whatever it might be, right? And it's like •^ i•^ it there's like a level of formality that kind of gets •^ reduced when •^ you're talking to a colleague and you're both at home, •^ you know?

Mike Rizzo

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. •

Naomi

So •

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, totally. That's •^ • that's what I was gonna say too. It's just • it's a different world that we live in today and we did this show gosh, I mean technically we started it • like pre COVID. •• Like •

It was we were in the throes of really going into all of that. So the world transformed on multiple levels •^ and and now there's AI. And I think some of

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

the •^ you know, some of the conversations that are • that we've had in the past, •^ I think are very telling for just, you know, • people in this profession. You're • often technologists, you're very savvy, you're • self-starters, you're you're curious, you know. • •^ maybe you're not the person that wants to

Stand up in a room and be the loudest or the most boisterous individual, and • and maybe some of you are, because we've certainly met some of those folks in our community as well. •^

Michael Hartmann

•^ Sh absolutely.

Mike Rizzo

but • you know, I think I think what's held true is that •^ there's authenticity to • who these people are. And I think the pattern of the discussions that we've had over the years in the show is • at least signaled to me that • you know that's that's sort of what makes •^ this community.

special and like what makes • I don't know companies really thrive is • is like not forgetting that there is you know this human aspect to everything and and and there's a personal • component to everything you bring to the to the office whether you work from home or not right it's like • you know you don't need to bring all your baggage but •• we certainly don't need to pretend like you're having a perfect day every single day either.

The Evolution of Marketing Ops 12:00

Mike Rizzo

Right. So •

Michael Hartmann

Right. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Do you think •^ I I can I'm trying to remember back • whatever w five years ago, six years ago almost, like I don't think there were really • many, if any, podcasts that were kind of in and around this topic. There were definitely marketing ones. • I don't know that any were in ops. Like and I'm

Naomi

Mm. •

Michael Hartmann

maybe another thing I think like I don't know that • I don't know how much we influenced or made it possible for other people. Right. I'd like to think that was • possible because there's some other really good ones out there now too. •

Naomi

Yeah. I know there was a couple 'cause

Mike Rizzo

Yeah.

Naomi

I was a guest on a couple of them. There was like is it Christy Saunders • had one •^ and then

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yep.

Naomi

there was the Humans of Martec one and then •^ •

Michael Hartmann

I thought humans of Martech came after us. • But I mean I mean, yeah.

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Mike Rizzo

get submissions for stuff like that. •

•^ but •^ other than that, like if you were mops adjacent or you know, somewhat related to like a marketing go-to-market function, it was like, yeah, come come share what you gotta share. •^ And

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

• and the fascinating part is it was like very rarely ever repetitive. •^ So •^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, I I would

Michael Hartmann

I would agree. And I I think •^ • I it's that reminds me like we did you know, we did for a long time we were out kind of asking people to be guests • and it sort of flipped out flipped around where, you know, we were getting people who wanted wanted to be on, they had perspective, they there's a topic they wanted. • And you're right, it was rare that we turned somebody down. And • probably •^ out of all those episodes we did maybe maybe ten people. We said, you know, probably not the right fit, right?

Michael Hartmann

don't even know if it was ten, maybe six. It doesn't feel

Mike Rizzo

Yeah. Yeah, I'd say

Mike Rizzo

• between five and ten, but like no more than that for sure. That was very rare.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah. It was so •^

Michael Hartmann

• but like I was thinking too, like one of those things that •^ • I think you're right, like the different perspectives is interesting when Silvergate's • we've we had several like, I don't know, probably around the same number, half a dozen people who had been CMOs or were currently CMOs. •• And I I mean I thought it was always interesting to get their perspective on how they thought about ops, • you know, compared to other things, •^ as part of the organization, what they leaned on, what they looked for. •

•^ I hope those were valuable for the people who are listening to go like how am I being perceived and • helping them maybe I I s still sense there's a lot of people who feel like they're overlooked • in these roles. •^ And

Mike Rizzo

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

you know, •^ • maybe give them some ideas on how to, • you know, • sh •• be more in the spotlight, right? And be comfortable with that. ••

Mike Rizzo

Yep. • Yep. • Yeah. I think it and when we look at •^ • just kinda scrolling through the the history of some of the sessions we've had, like • some of our top performing sessions are very much related to that, you know, • CMO related kind of what CMOs should know about marketing operations and

Michael Hartmann

Yep. •

Mike Rizzo

you know, • maximizing the marketing ops and CMO relationship and and all this other kind of stuff. And •^ • obviously that's like a hot button item for folks and •^ we've got, you know, obviously content you can go back and listen to, •^ • type in the word CMO and you'll probably find it in the • in the history. But •^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

• I think that, you know, where we're headed now as a community •^ with the events and and all that stuff, it's all you know, I • I don't wanna

Mike Rizzo

like we're so buttoned up that we have it all orchestrated and analyzed and understood because gosh there's a plethora of information here and data that would I'm sure •^ really support •^ so many things that we do but • but • we are • learning from like of you know observing and learning while we listen to these episodes to figure out you know how do we continue to help folks in this in this area and so even though •

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

We might not have a a net new guest come on •^ anymore. •^ the work that you did, Michael, is • super •^ imperative to the ability for this, • you know, whole community to thrive. And •• I just I can't thank you enough. I th I know we've done an episode or two like this before where I've thanked you, but I just this is

Michael Hartmann

Can't quite hear that •^ much.

Mike Rizzo

this being the • the one, •^ the last one. •^ ••

You know, I • I give you a virtual toast of whatever your favorite drink of choice is and • •^ I just wanna say thank

Michael Hartmann

Well, I appreciate it.

Mike Rizzo

you and • hopefully our listeners are saying thank you know, just whisper thank you to Michael when you hear this. •^ Yeah,

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

exactly. •^ one day there's gonna be

Michael Hartmann

well I I appreciate that.

Mike Rizzo

this overwhelming on like when we publish this, this like • Michael's gonna wake up. I feel so loved today. •^ Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

•^ That'd be awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

• So • like •• it's •^ • I will tell you like ••

Thirteen year old me n would never have guessed I would have done something like this. •^ I've been scared shitless to with the idea of • being out

n there in kind of the public stage. It's not really something I would have thought I would have done. ••

Mike Rizzo

Yeah. • I feel that • more than you know. •^

Michael Hartmann

Ha ha ha.

Mike Rizzo

so yeah, I get you. Well I I just wanna •

Yeah, I just want to say thank you again. It's just been a wonderful •^ journey. I know I haven't been able to be as available •^ as I was in the earlier days, and and you you pressed on, and I think that that is a testament to your dedication to the community, to the craft, to your desire to learn. And I think you're • •^ •

you know, •^ a sort of if I could put you on a pedestal, like you're a a prime example of exactly what a marketing operations go to market ops professional is, right? Someone who's willing to take on a challenge, do the research, figure it out, •^ and and just like put their head down and get it done. •^ and you did it • in a way that I think filled your cup up, but obviously as we alluded to earlier, •

Mike Rizzo

it it helped fill the cups of others too. And I don't know. There's like • there's not much better you can ask for when when someone just puts themselves out there and really goes all in and • I think our listeners felt it. I certainly felt it. •^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

• and so, you know, thanks for being a shining example of what it looks like to be a a good go to market ops leader that's • forging a path. It's •^ yeah, it's

Michael Hartmann

I appreciate that.

Mike Rizzo

really cool, man. I just yeah.

Naomi

Nothing I can

Naomi

say, Mike, •^ would top what you just said. So I'm just gonna say ditto, Michael. So ditto. •^

Mike Rizzo

•^ Ditto. Ditto.

Michael Hartmann

I wish I had

Mike Rizzo

I wish I had written that all down. It probably would've come out a little smoother. •^

Naomi

Right? Yeah. •^

Michael Hartmann

•^

Naomi

No. But it's like

Michael Hartmann

I don't know.

Naomi

y you know, genuine and authentic that way. •

Mike Rizzo

Yeah. • • Yeah, no plan of speech here. Sorry, bud. •^ Per the

Michael Hartmann

That's all right.

Mike Rizzo

usual. •^ Mike Mike sa Mike didn't read

Michael Hartmann

Is it?

Mike Rizzo

the show notes before the call started.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. • At le at least we you're not making us try to to you know, lip sync over a •^ a wrap. ••

Mike Rizzo

•^ Yeah, that's true. That was actu those were fun moments too. We did

Michael Hartmann

That was fun.

Mike Rizzo

the •

We did all the little rap music. The intro song, by the way, for those of you that have been listening to the show for years, if you skip past the intro •^ music after having heard it a few times, I totally understand. But •^ you know, shout out to my brother-in-law. So I had this like idea for how this intro would go in my brain from a scripting perspective. And you should have seen the three of us try to figure out how to say the words opscast like at the same time. •^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. •^

Mike Rizzo

I was like, you know what? Maybe this is just something we have to edit together and

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

• •^ my brother in law did an incredible job layering in the entire thing and building that for us. And he just asked me, we were we were together a week ago. •^ he's like, •^ you still using that? I was like, Yeah, • why would we change it? •^ And so •^

Michael Hartmann

That's so funny. I don't even think I

Michael Hartmann

realized that was your brother in law who who did that. I probably knew at one point, but didn't didn't stay in my brain.

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, yeah, it was him. He has an incredible

Mike Rizzo

ear. Like he can hear, •^ he's he's a musician • •^ on the side and he he can just like hear •^ things that I can't hear, you know. And •^ • and so he he lined it all up or whatever. He was stoked and • yeah, we published it and he was thrilled. So • it's a family affair, this podcast and •^ and to your point •^

Michael Hartmann

Well and w I feel like we I feel like

Mike Rizzo

We're all family. •^ Yeah. That's

Michael Hartmann

we become family, yeah. •^ So

Mike Rizzo

what I that's what I feel too. I get •^ I love I love that we can all like stay in touch and text and and all that stuff and I •^ that doesn't that doesn't preclude all of you out there, right? Like you might not have our phone numbers, •^ but • you know,

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

•^ don't hesitate to reach out to us 'cause we're all still around •^ trying to

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

be supportive of all of y'all. •

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. And I'm still around, just not running this podcast. •^ I'm

Mike Rizzo

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

alwa I am always down to talk to people about this stuff, whether it's one on one or on a podcast. So • yeah, definitely don't don't hesitate to reach out. •

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, for sure. Actually, •^ why don't you tell what you're up to, Michael. You've got you know, no you know, you're a • marketing ops, rev ops guy and leader and you're a people leader, but you do a little bit of coaching too, right?

Michael Hartmann

Yep,  

Michael Hartmann

I do coaching. • I •^ mean what I what I think I am strong at and what I actually get a lot of satisfaction out of is working with, • you know, new leaders or people who are thinking about being a leader, •^ people leader. •^ because I think •^ most organizations do a really terrible job of •^ identifying the right people and then • preparing them for what the expectations are that are often •• assumed to be understood, but •^ a lot of times aren't, and then • you know, help them learn some new skills.

'Cause it's • there are different skills that are required to be a good leader • than •^ to be a good individual contributor. Right. So • •^ that's that's

Mike Rizzo

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

what I love to do. And • I'm definitely open for more more clients there. I've got a handful right now and •^ with with the podcast ending, I'll have a little bit more opening too as well. So thanks for letting me talk about that. •

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, absolutely. And we probably should have • put that on the forefront a little bit more often. But yeah.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

if anybody's •^ • interested, • so • you yeah you you've heard a lot from him. If you haven't, go back and listen to more episodes. •^ And you'll get to know who you're talking to and •^ it could be really good.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. •^

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Yeah. So it's so funny thing is I actually sent an LLM • at all the transcripts for all the episodes and had it do an analysis of me. • So that's been an interesting exercise. •

Mike Rizzo

•^ really? And so

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

it did it did you do like a disc analysis of •^ • your episode recordings? •^

Michael Hartmann

I didn't do a disk analysis.

Michael Hartmann

I think I had a disk analysis that I provided. I definitely had Myers Briggs and I've got •^ Strengths Finder and all that. But yeah, it's it's been interesting just to see • what what it took and • especially 'cause they're just • I think •^ yeah at the beginning I think we leaned heavily on more of the tech • and analytics stuff and over time it shifted •^ •

We still had some of that, but it was a little more of a strat you know, strategy strategic thoughts and stuff like that. So • it had a lot to chew on •^ and

Mike Rizzo

Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

you know, and I think •^ •• I I tried really hard to •^ do what I'd want somebody to do, which is like challenge. Like sometimes if I didn't agree with like I we we I think the three of us had times where we • didn't always agree on stuff and I think it that's valuable, right? • I think sh showing people how to have those conversations is ••

is an important ski that's that's one of those skills as a leader you need to be able to have is have

Mike Rizzo

Mm. •^

Michael Hartmann

tough conversations without completely •^ undermining a relationship. •

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, yeah, totally. I know. It wasn't often that we got to disagree on much, but sometimes it happened. •^

Michael Hartmann

No.

Navigating Tough Conversations 30:21

Mike Rizzo

well.

Michael Hartmann

Usually had to do with Naomi,

Michael Hartmann

you know, going so all all in on Canada. •

Naomi

Ha ha •^ •.

Mike Rizzo

Ha ha ha.

Mike Rizzo

•^ I I learned things recently about •^ Canada and and that the beverage that I was gonna purchase •^ and I guess I

Naomi

yes, that's right. We

Mike Rizzo

guess Canada banned all the •^ American alcohol or whiskey at a bare minimum or something. Yeah. Yeah, they pulled it off the shelves, yeah.

Naomi

You can't even buy it. Yeah, yeah, you can't if they pulled it off the shelves. Yeah. Yeah. So

Michael Hartmann

Really? Really?

Naomi

you •^ you go to the liquor store and like you go to the USA section and there's nothing. •^ Or like •^

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, yeah. Yep. •^

Michael Hartmann

You can only get Canadian whiskey, Canadian rye.

Naomi

well everywhere else too, like Europe • and you know, Asia Pack, just no USA, you know, because of

Mike Rizzo

Yeah.

Michael Hartmann

That's funny.

Naomi

s of certain •^ of certain •^ things, reasons,

Michael Hartmann

Gotcha.

Naomi

you know? Yes.

Mike Rizzo

y yeah, yeah. Specific

Mike Rizzo

• specific

Michael Hartmann

Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

things. Yeah. 'Cause I was like, •^ like maybe maybe I'll get us all a little bottle or something. She's Well it's gonna have to be one of these •^

Naomi

A few a few specific things. You know? Yeah, 'cause I think you were like 'cause you were like, go yeah,

Naomi

'cause you were like go and buy this and then I'll rem and I like, Well, I literally can't. So •^

Michael Hartmann

Ha ha. •^

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, yeah. And

Mike Rizzo

then I was like, wait, what? And I was like, Okay, but I want us to all have the same one and then I forgot, so we didn't end up doing the whole thing, but

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. Well we could we could do

Naomi

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Michael Hartmann

a virtual Canadian whiskey, you know, shot cheer somewhere along the way. I don't have any problem with Canadian whiskey, especially with a little gin with with a little ginger beer.

Naomi

Yeah. •^

Mike Rizzo

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I didn't I mean I definitely didn't either. I

Mike Rizzo

just • I should have just bought some. I just forgot. It's Mike's fault. I was in I

Michael Hartmann

•^ all good.

Mike Rizzo

was in Hawaii. Sorry. •^ I was on vacation. •^ I forgot. •^ I know, I know, I

Michael Hartmann

Yeah. You took vacation? Yeah.

Naomi

Boo boo. Boo •^ hoo. •^

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Mike Rizzo

know. •^ well I think we're lingering and listeners are probably like, why did I listen to the rest of this now? •^ So •^

Michael Hartmann

•^ Yeah. •^

Michael Hartmann

All right. Well, hey, I do. Yeah.

Mike Rizzo

•^ why don't you do our final send off? •^ •

Michael Hartmann

As always, thanks everyone for your support. We we really do • appreciate it when we do get feedback. So •^ but mostly we like we tried to provide a service. And so thank you for your support. •^ thanks for being there. Thanks for your ideas and for those of you who've been guests, right? Thanks for joining us and sharing and your perspective and most of all the two of you. Thanks for being •

you

Michael Hartmann

are. I mean I like • feel like I'm one of the luckiest people out there. I got to really get to • know you two and got to know a lot of other people through this. So •^ • as hard as this is, •^ it's the right time and • I will cherish it. ••

Mike Rizzo

Yeah. • Us too. • Well thank you, Michael. And thank you, listeners,

Naomi

Us two, yeah. •^ Thank you, Michael.

Michael Hartmann

All right.

Mike Rizzo

for for being involved for the last five years. We really appreciate you. And •^ • we'll let you know if there's anything new coming. We have no plans yet. •^ • but •^ please • listen, share, rate, review the past episodes. The content's • great. • And you should go back. Yep. All right.

Michael Hartmann

Yeah, it's all still relevant. • Yeah. • All right. Until next

Michael Hartmann

time, •^ maybe. Bye ever bye y'all.

Mike Rizzo

Maybe. Bye, everybody. •••