(0:00) Hello, I'm Courtney Makara, and this is the Society of Marketing Technology (0:04) Consulting podcast. SMTC has joined forces with the MarketingOps.com (0:09) community, but our mission is still the same, to educate and support anyone (0:13) involved in the MarTech world as a consultant. (0:16) Hey, this is Mike from MarketingOps.com. If you're thinking about going into (0:20) consulting or you're already a successful consultant, join us online by (0:24) becoming a member.As a pro member, you can join the SMTC and other private (0:29) networks at MarketingOps.com. In this podcast series, Grant Gregorian and (0:34) I interviewed guests on their journeys as consultants. We discussed all that it (0:38) means to be a great MarTech consultant, from setting up their business or (0:42) joining an agency, and how to find new clients and keep their existing clients (0:46) happy. I hope you enjoy the interview.And today joining us is Mike Rizzo with (0:51) WeWork in New York City. Hi, Mike. Hey, Courtney.How are you? (0:56) I'm doing good. Thanks for joining. Thanks for having me.This is fun. (1:00) Yeah. So we're going to pester you with questions about kind of your work (1:05) history and your experience doing marketing operations work, both as a (1:10) full-time employee, and you did some agency experience as well, correct? (1:15) I have.So why don't you tell us a little bit (1:18) about that first transition about going from the traditional American dream of (1:23) W2 employee to leaving that comfort, and what made you decide to go a little bit (1:29) of a different route? Sure. So one of the first things that (1:33) always kind of excited me about an agency was the concept of working with (1:36) different types of people, projects, companies, industries, and working with (1:43) different professionals with different backgrounds from coding technical (1:47) experience to developing and all different types of skills. So it just (1:52) really getting that experience with different types of people and projects, (1:57) I always just found really, really exciting.That's very cool. How comfortable (2:05) were you making that leap? You're like, okay, this sounds exciting. I get to (2:08) work with all these different people, but was it just like, oh, there's a job (2:11) opening and I'm going to apply.No big deal. Or were you a little bit nervous (2:14) to change gears and really be that outside consulting relationship, or did (2:21) it come natural to you? So yeah, I was, to be honest, I was a little hesitant at (2:26) first because I never really considered myself a consultant. But once I got in (2:31) there with my team at DigitalPi, based off of how much I've learned from them (2:39) in terms of even just from knowledge to even like personal confidence, I kind of (2:45) started to sink in maybe like a year into the role that, wow, okay, I actually (2:50) know some things, I've seen different projects that folks might not have had.(2:56) So a little hesitant at first, but with the support of an agency behind me, it became (3:02) much more comfortable in the end. I've heard that before where people, (3:10) can we explore that feeling of uncomfortable being a consultant? What made you think that (3:16) you wouldn't be like, you know, so much, you've done so much in the mops role in your other (3:22) companies. Why do you think you kind of hesitated? What was the, what did you think it was like, (3:29) you know, like what was the disconnect between what you thought consultant was like? And the (3:34) fact that when, once you got in there, you found out, oh, wait, like I could totally do this.(3:38) What do you think that came from? So for me, I had two previous roles at startups (3:45) in New York city. And I've always thought of consultants of these, like, you know, seasoned (3:51) veterans. They have, you know, been all over different companies and have this wealth of (3:56) knowledge.But once I started my role, you kind of realize that other companies have very similar (4:03) issues, uh, you know, database wise, uh, you know, all, all different reasons. And it kind of (4:09) just, I just realized that, okay, maybe this isn't as, you know, as scary as I thought it was (4:16) going to be, you know, again, it comes with the support of other team members that if it was (4:20) maybe a situation where I wasn't comfortable in, whether it's like a high level executive (4:26) kind of strategic meeting at first to bring in other team members for that support. (4:32) So I would say it was just kind of the, the initial fear of not knowing everything (4:38) and advising people on those decisions.But then once you got in there, you know, you, you realize (4:45) that, you know, the team has your support that wouldn't put you in any situation that's uncomfortable (4:51) and then you learn from it. So once you kind of. Yeah.I mean, I mean, like, I feel like there's (4:57) some, sometimes people have this misconception of like, that if you're a consultant, like you have (5:02) to know all the answers to things. And maybe, maybe it just reflects on me as a consultant (5:07) badly that I don't know all the answers, maybe, but I've never really met a consultant who knows (5:13) all the answers. And I even remember one time I had a client who thought that I should know all (5:19) the answers and cause they thought like, Hey, we brought in a consultant.Like, and I remember they (5:25) would ask me like very specific, like it was Salesforce questions, you know, like, I don't know (5:29) what the answer is. And I would like, I like, I, and I would tell them, I don't know. And they're (5:34) like, then why do you, why are you here? I thought you were supposed to know.And then I would like, (5:39) I'm like, no, I don't, I need to look it up. And then they would, they would tease me from that (5:43) point on. They're like, Grant, we can hear you Googling from here.Hey, you're being resourceful. (5:49) Hey. And so I was like, yeah, like, I don't know all the answers, but I guess as a consultant, (5:55) like my job was to figure out what the answer is for you and like use the experience of all the (6:00) other people I've worked with to kind of craft what the right thing to do is with all the research, (6:05) including Google, including other colleagues at other, you know, my, at my, at the agency or, (6:12) or other friends, or maybe even other clients.So I can like find the answer for you. So (6:19) I've definitely seen that before. And I'm so glad that you kind of got over, you got to, (6:23) you got to digital pie and you're like, wait a minute, these guys aren't (6:27) better than me.Like, this is totally fine. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was definitely an (6:33) interesting experience.And even, you know, towards the latter end of my time there, (6:38) you know, it was just, it was just great to go through the experiences that I have and, (6:43) you know, meet the people that I did. And it ended up just being a really, (6:48) really great experience and basically a life and career changing experience for me, (6:53) to be honest. So yeah, it was great.Well, I'm really curious about what did you learn (7:00) as a consultant and in that life? I think you were there for about three years. (7:05) Did it make you a better employee down the road? Cause then you did leave the, (7:10) the agency world and you went back in house to your current role at WeWork. (7:15) And do you feel now you approach being an internal employee a little bit differently (7:20) because of that lens that you had? I don't know if it's, if I feel like it's an internal (7:27) employee, I would say just more as like a professional based off of what I've learned (7:32) and experienced from there.So whether it's a matter of, you know, project management, (7:38) tackling an issue, communicating, you know, I've never really, you know, had the amount (7:45) of stakeholders I would have at digital pie. So learning all the different skill sets (7:52) as a consultant, and I would say even from leaving or going back to in-house project (7:57) management has been kind of a really pig and valuable skillset. So even beyond like the (8:02) technical stuff, even, you know, we focused a lot on emotional intelligence, you know, (8:08) and it was a very, you know, I had a very personal relationship with my team as well.(8:13) And I was able to take that with me in terms of people management and, you know, mentorship to (8:18) other, you know, my colleagues, team members. So taking all that away and then being able to go (8:25) back and, you know, in-house, I mean, it was, it was, it was just so valuable. Like, I don't know (8:31) if I can stress that enough.Yeah, that's awesome. I actually love that you're talking (8:34) about the emotional intelligence because I think a lot of times with consulting, I don't know, (8:40) Grant and myself, we're independent out here. We don't have a lot of quote unquote coworkers, (8:46) but you can still get that kind of career growth and leadership experience and consult by going to (8:53) an agency, which I think is great.Some people I think stay internal and they think, well, (8:58) if I'm a consultant, I'm, I'm an Island and all by myself, I still want, I want to manage a team. (9:04) I want to get people management experience. And you can actually definitely get that and be on the (9:08) dark side as they call it.Yeah, I've been there. The one thing, the one thing that I wouldn't say (9:16) it was tough, but you know, you, when you work with a client for, you know, six, nine months, (9:21) you implement, you know, we were primarily a Marketo shop and you essentially build this (9:28) foundation and it becomes like your baby and you want to see the baby grow and you don't want to, (9:31) you know, stay with it. So as a Marketo user, it, it, you know, you want to like build these things (9:39) and you want to see them through and through and you want to see them perform.So that was the (9:42) one thing for me that kind of, not that I didn't like it, but it's just, you know, I missed kind (9:52) of owning a system, you know, it was great to build something from the ground up, but (9:57) it never really felt like yours, you know, and that was part of the reason, but what kind of (10:04) drove me to go back in house or on the dark side. Yeah. Because you got to stay with it and you got (10:11) to see it through.That too. And I, I've always, I mean, I've had great relationships with all my (10:18) clients. I still keep in touch with many of them, but even at least for me, like you, your opinion (10:25) is really valid.You do great work, but I always kind of felt like a second-class citizen, even (10:31) with some of my closest clients. And, you know, I, you know, I get it. You know, you want your (10:35) in-house team to own certain processes or own certain systems, but you know, it was kind of (10:42) like that, not having that sense of belonging.I think at an internal company is something that (10:51) I did start to miss a little bit. Well, can you talk about that actually? Cause one of the reasons (10:57) we wanted to have you on is because you kind of have, not only did you work in an agency, (11:03) but what a lot of folks might not realize is that even while you're working at an agency, (11:08) you might be assigned to work at a single client and you might be working there for years. (11:15) I know this is true for like larger tech agencies, you know, like the (11:20) Accentures and Deloitte's of the world, where you're essentially an, you know, like a staff (11:27) member of that, of that company or that organization, you just happen to receive your (11:32) paycheck from the consulting agency rather than directly from that company.But you, (11:36) you go to work there. You may even, you know, it's like a full-time job, but you are not really (11:44) part of the team, but you are because you're like working with them. Do you know what I mean? (11:48) And so you, you had, well, you were digital PI, you had both, you had both kind of like what people (11:53) would think of was where you have a mix of clients and you're jumping back and forth between projects, (11:59) but you also did a long stint at a single company.Can you talk more about that? (12:05) Yeah. So when I joined digital PI for about, about a year, I had maybe five or six clients. (12:13) You know, mostly startups, a couple of large enterprise clients, but then I ended up joining (12:18) the Marketo account full-time.And I was there for a year and a half for a long time. The joke (12:25) with my team was I'd been at Marketo longer than digital PI. And because of the full-time commitments, (12:31) I was on their Slack, you know, internal systems.I really didn't interact with my digital PI team (12:38) that much. The joke with my internal team was we're on purple Island and we got to do what we (12:45) got to do. We're just on purple Island.Yeah. So just to clarify, like when you say (12:50) a Marketo, cause you, this is like very meta here, right? Cause you're a Marketo consultant (12:55) working on Marketo, like the platform at Marketo itself. This is like triple inception here.(13:04) Yeah. It does get a little, a little trippy sometimes, but yeah, I, I worked at Marketo. (13:11) I got to manage Marketo's Marketo part of the team to implement Marketo's new Marketo.(13:18) And this was after I left that team. Cause I was on the internal Marketo mobs team (13:23) in like 2013 to 15. So I'm sorry that you inherited the mess.(13:34) Courtney, Courtney, they had to bring in outside help. (13:42) Okay. So, so talk about that.So, so you said, I mean purple Island, what was it? (13:53) So did you feel like, Hey, I kind of work at Marketo at this, how long was that project? (13:58) And tell us how did it go and how did it eventually come to an end? (14:04) Yeah. So I was there for a little, a little longer than a year and a half. And yeah, I mean, (14:11) I had great relationships with so many people at Marketo and I still do today.And (14:17) you know, just being a Marketo user and a super fan, I mean, it was, it was almost like surreal (14:23) that I got a chance to work at Marketo and go into the office and, you know, get a chance to (14:29) meet Sarah Kennedy and the rest of the team. And, you know, it, it, it, I really enjoyed it. It felt (14:35) great.You know, you know, worked with a number of different teams and, you know, working on, (14:42) you know, just different types of projects for Marketo and even working with Coleman vendors, (14:48) people would think that I actually worked there. I'm like, no, I'm actually with digital pie. (14:51) Cause you know, I, cause I had a, I had a Marketo email address, you know, it was very (14:56) much like a full-time role with just a little, you know, the little C at the end of it, my email.(15:02) So, but because of the relationship that I had there with everybody, people would wait, like, (15:07) do you, do you work here or not? Like, I'm not quite sure. Like, I think you do. I'm like, no, (15:12) I actually do not.It's like, well, define work. I do work here, but I just, I'm not (15:21) Yeah. You guys just don't give me a paycheck.It's okay. (15:24) You know, one thing that strikes me about the way that you talk about work is you, you stress (15:32) relationships. And I know that some of the, some of the people I talked to about consulting who (15:39) asked me for advice there's another misconception about consultants.One we covered, which is that (15:46) they must know everything. And two is that there's a little bit of a kind of a mercenary (15:51) feel sometimes that people have like, well, we're going to hire this person to do this job. (15:56) And then when they're done, they're gone.You know what I mean? And it's very, (15:59) it's very transactional. It's like, oh, I'm here to perform this task list. That's in the scope of (16:06) work.And then when I'm complete, I collect my money and I run away. And, and I found the reality (16:12) to be very much not like that. I find it very that I've made really great friends with my clients.(16:20) And I found that the best relationships, working relationships are kind of very often (16:26) are rooted in a great personal relationship as well. Can you, can you talk about your experience (16:33) with that? Well, at Digital Pi and then also in reverse as, you know, as you work with other (16:40) consultants when you were in-house. Yeah.I mean, that's one of the things that (16:46) I would say initially attracted me to, you know, being a consultant was I, I like people, (16:51) I like to help people. I like talking with people and, you know, even in those simple types of (16:58) transactional projects, like you mentioned, you know, you're still, you still interact with, (17:04) you know, the clients. I think it is, you know, a pretty big part of being a consultant.And then (17:11) I ended up joining, you know, multiple Slack channels with my clients just to maintain (17:16) that communication. And, you know, I think it's just, it's relationship building. I think it's (17:22) such an important part of, you know, I would say any professional relationship, but especially with (17:28) marketing operations, because of how much different teams depend on you or the impact (17:34) they could have.So in terms of my time at Digital Pi, I mean, it was just, (17:40) it was a very, very personable experience with my clients. You know, it was great. And then when (17:46) you go back in-house, you know, even, you know, from your client vendors, but you have your (17:51) stakeholders, so they're essentially going to be your, your new clients.At least that's how I look (17:55) at it. You know, maintain those relationships and just developing friendship. I mean, I just, (18:03) I just always enjoyed that and I think it can really, really benefit the workplace.(18:10) Yeah, I definitely agree that the relationships have been surprisingly deep and genuine and lovely (18:17) with some of the clients that I've met and it starts to become like mutually beneficial. And (18:22) I've learned things from my clients on project management and, you know, change management and (18:28) things like that. It's been really, it's been great.So Mike, when you were kind of getting (18:35) itchy feet and thinking, oh, there might be something else for me out there, were you looking (18:39) specifically for an in-house role? Did you ever consider going independent and consulting on your (18:44) own? Or was it, you were like, okay, it's either agency life for me. I like the having, you know, (18:50) quote unquote, coworkers or a team supporting you, or going to look at the WeWork job. I'm (18:56) curious how WeWork came into your life.So I was asked from a few people while at Marketo (19:02) to kind of start up our own little two or three-man shops. And for me, I never, I just didn't (19:12) find that appealing because of the support and the knowledge that I had from my team at Digital Pie. (19:19) So I think, you know, I thought about that route, but maybe when I'm much older, you know, I want to, (19:25) you know, what, let me be, you know, get some solid, maybe 15, 20 years experience on my belt.(19:30) And then maybe I'll go that route. And, you know, when I have a family later on, but for me right (19:35) now in my career, just again, the support that an agency has always, I just felt really appealing to (19:44) why I wanted to leave. So I was always me.I just, I like big companies. I like, (19:52) you know, big projects, big challenges. I always wanted to break into a larger (19:57) company.And I also wanted to get out of Marketo. You know, it's, it kind of pains me to think (20:05) about that, but, you know, marketing operations is very different at a large company. And I wanted (20:09) that experience.And with WeWork, an old boss of mine ended up taking the head of marketing (20:18) ops role and got a call one day. And I was like, hell yeah, let's, let's, let's do this. (20:24) And been there for my one year was actually this week.(20:28) Oh, happy one year anniversary. Congrats. (20:30) Thank you.Thank you. (20:31) So what platforms are you working on now? I mean, you're really kind of expanding the (20:37) the breadth of your skillset now that you're at this enterprise company, which I think (20:41) you guys have, you know, 8,000 employees or something like that is huge. That's definitely (20:46) a big leap to probably managing a whole bunch of new technology.(20:52) Yeah, that is certainly true. So the main systems I work in right now, honestly, are really just (20:58) Salesforce. We use Snowflake for our warehouse and, but really like deep technical knowledge, (21:05) SQL, you know, understanding data warehouses and multiple APIs and how data gets processed (21:12) at a company the size of WeWork.It's completely different from, you know, an enterprise startup. (21:18) I'm sorry, a regular startup. And yeah, I mean, it was just that type of skill that was exactly (21:27) like why I wanted to join this.So a lot of, actually a lot of Googling on how to, that's (21:32) basically how I learned SQL. Google and YouTube. So like developing those skillsets and, you know, (21:41) managing, I've always liked global roles.When I was at Marketo, you know, when we, it was really (21:47) my first time being in a global function and WeWork now, I mean, my SQLs are probably doubled, (21:53) but, you know, working with a team in Russia, something that I never experienced for the legal (21:57) laws you have to deal with is I never thought about something like that or, you know, getting (22:02) that type of experience and a kind of global marketing apps function is what I wanted to just (22:08) keep building on my skillsets. That's amazing. Mike, you have so many great stories and I think (22:17) you've shared a ton of great advice and I wanted to thank you for talking with us today.(22:24) Great. Thanks for having me. This was, this was exciting.(22:28) Thanks for listening to another episode of SMTC podcast. If you liked this episode, (22:33) please rate us on whatever platform you're listening us on. The ratings make this podcast (22:38) better and make it easier for other people to discover it as well.Also be sure to subscribe (22:43) if you haven't already joined the SMTC by going to joinsmtc.com and join as a member. It's free. (22:51) It's just a mailing list.We look forward to hearing from you. Bye. (22:55) Bye.