(0:00) Hello, I'm Courtney Makara, and this is the Society of Marketing Technology (0:04) Consulting podcast. SMTC has joined forces with the MarketingOps.com (0:09) community, but our mission is still the same, to educate and support anyone (0:13) involved in the MarTech world as a consultant. (0:16) Hey, this is Mike from MarketingOps.com. If you're thinking about going into (0:20) consulting or you're already a successful consultant, join us online by (0:24) becoming a member.As a pro member, you can join the SMTC and other private (0:29) networks at MarketingOps.com. In this podcast series, Grant Gregorian and (0:34) I interviewed guests on their journeys as consultants. We discussed all that it (0:38) means to be a great MarTech consultant, from setting up their business or joining (0:42) an agency, and how to find new clients and keep their existing clients happy. (0:46) I hope you enjoy the interview.Today, Grant and I are joined by Alden (0:52) Dale, who is currently working at Inverta, which is based in Boise, Idaho. (0:57) Thanks for joining us. Great to be on board today, Courtney.(1:01) Wonderful. Let's get a little background on your MOPS world and experience. The (1:07) first time you were introduced to marketing technology, I'm assuming you (1:12) were in an in-house role at the time, and they were like, hey, here's this (1:16) platform that you're responsible for, that seems to be how most people are (1:20) introduced to it.Is that kind of how it came into your world? (1:23) A little bit. I actually started in a sales and marketing role and was unhappy (1:29) with the limited use of sales force I was given, so I built out an automatic (1:34) emailing tool in Visual Basic using Excel. My mom took one look at that and (1:40) she said, you know, we've got something called Eloqua.(1:43) That's awesome. (1:45) So at that point, they realized I had a little bit more of a passion for that (1:49) and transitioned over to Eloqua, and then, yeah, that was really where I (1:54) kind of kicked off in the marketing operations side of things. (1:58) That's great.So this podcast is obviously all about the life between a (2:04) full-time employee versus an agency versus consulting and freelancing. (2:08) When we were talking to you before recording this, you mentioned you started (2:12) kind of moonlighting, doing that like nights and weekends on the side (2:15) consulting. Is that kind of how you dabbled into this world at first? (2:20) Yeah, yeah.I had a client-side position I was certainly happy with, but at the (2:27) time, Marketo was really growing a lot. I had a decent amount of Marketo skills (2:31) and in connections with a local users group and just through networking, I met (2:37) a number of people who needed help with Marketo from time to time, so I actually (2:42) approached my full-time boss and said, hey, can I pick this up here and there? (2:47) She gave me the blessing. As long as I didn't work during company hours, she (2:52) said she was fine with lunch breaks or evenings or that kind of thing.So I (2:56) started taking a handful of jobs here and there to supplement the income and (3:00) just kind of, honestly, it was fun just expanding the network and getting a (3:03) chance to see other marketing teams and systems and that kind of thing. (3:11) Yeah, that's actually kind of surprising. Can you talk a little bit more about (3:16) this idea of approaching your boss? Because I mean, I've heard it both ways.(3:20) I've heard it both being blessed by, like, did you feel the, okay, just tell (3:25) me, did you approach, why did you tell your boss and what was the thinking (3:33) behind there and why not just do it on the side anyway? Like who needs to know? (3:37) Yeah, so I did take a glance at my employment contract and whether I was (3:42) allowed to do that. It wasn't overly clear from the employment contract and I (3:48) just wanted to make sure we kept things on the up and up. It helped that at the (3:52) time I had approached her for a raise and she came back and wasn't able to (3:56) give me quite as much as I was hoping for and I think kind of justified a (4:02) higher wage, but she basically came back and said she had budget constraints (4:06) that didn't allow it.That actually was a good conversation because then (4:09) approaching the, you know, can I start moonlighting? It was this, hey, I love (4:15) working here. It's a great company. I understand you guys can't bring me quite (4:19) up to what the market would bear.So there was a little bit of a trade-off (4:23) there where I would be a little bit more understanding about the less than (4:28) aggressive pay rate I was hoping for. There was a little back and forth, but I (4:33) definitely wanted to keep it on the up and up, especially because the employment (4:37) contract was a little iffy whether or not that was allowable without permission. (4:41) Yeah, no, I mean, that is a wonderful, like, I don't want to call it a strategy (4:47) because I don't know if, but it is a really great idea, like, to tie those two (4:53) together, to ask for the raise, which is a really scary conversation to have and (4:58) we can devote a whole podcast just on that, how to do that well.So, but to tie (5:05) that in to say, because now they feel bad, you know, so this way you have, in (5:10) terms of negotiating tactics, like you have an answer for both. It's like if (5:14) they say yes to the raise, that's great. You just get a raise.And if they say (5:21) no, then you have like a great follow-up to say, hey, great, but then what about (5:26) this? As long as it doesn't, you know, directly interfere with your employment (5:32) contract, which my understanding, most of the time, unless you're doing something (5:36) overly competitive, like either working for a competitor or building something (5:40) that might interfere with, you know, the business success of your own company, I (5:44) feel like most of the time employers are like, yeah, like it's fine. You know what (5:48) I mean? It's like in terms of the employer contract itself. (5:53) Yeah.No, and I think as long as you're not, you know, talking directly with the (5:56) company's competitor and as long as you're being upfront about it, I've found (5:59) decent amount of success. After that client-side position, I actually took (6:03) another position client-side, but part of, because I found I kind of liked the (6:07) moonlighting thing, part of when I was getting hired, I did bake into an (6:11) understanding that I would be, you know, continuing some moonlighting from time to (6:15) time. And I was able to go into the next, the next client-side role with that (6:19) expectation from the get-go, which made it even easier.(6:23) Wow. Oh, that's great. Just to talk about it right during the interview process.(6:26) And I know Grant, you also did kind of moonlighting side jobs. So my question's (6:31) really for both of you. How does that work with just hours and availability? (6:36) You know, your clients can't get ahold of you, you know, nine to five, Monday (6:39) through Friday.Is it harder to get clients when they know they're going to (6:43) have limited access to you or did it, does it kind of just all work itself out? (6:48) Alden, you go first. (6:50) Yeah. So I found, you know, you've got the pitch of you're, you're getting my (6:54) nights and weekends and you're up front with the clients about that if you're (6:57) doing a moonlighting thing, but you also have the advantage to say, Hey, you're (7:00) not, you're not paying the rates of, of a full-time, you know, agency where (7:05) you're getting, you know, eight reps committed to your account at all times.(7:09) They, there's a trade-off and they get that with the slightly lower (7:13) availability, they're probably getting a little bit more aggressive pricing. (7:16) Um, and so I think that that's a good trade-off. And of course there's the (7:19) marketing thing.They know you're in demand and when you're in demand, it (7:23) makes them want you even more. So I feel that even to a certain extent, even (7:27) helps the sales process with a lot of clients because, you know, you're saying (7:31) in essence, you're lucky to have some of my time and that makes, makes them a (7:35) little bit more likely to sign the contract in the first place. (7:38) Nice.Yeah, I agree. I mean, the, the toughest part for me was finding my own (7:43) time to, to do a moonlighting, you know, like weekends and nights. That's, it's (7:48) kind of a, it's a significant kind of sacrifice cause you're kind of working (7:51) all the time.You have a full-time job, which can be quite extensive. Um, and (7:56) then in addition to that, you're also trying to, to help this other company. (7:59) So just, um, it is, it can get pretty, pretty chaotic.And, um, if you can keep (8:07) up with it, I think that's awesome. So Alden, now you're at an agency, how would (8:14) you describe the difference in what it's like to be a consultant freelance (8:20) moonlighting versus being kind of full-time consultant and, and I should (8:26) add, are you still moonlighting? (8:30) Um, so yeah, so working for a full-time agency, um, I, between the client side (8:36) work and working for a larger agency, I actually did my own thing for about a (8:40) year and a half, um, which was a great experience. I really enjoyed going out (8:44) and, you know, basically being able to control everything end to end.Um, but (8:49) when I was offered the opportunity to come under and under another bigger (8:53) agency, I was in the middle of doing collections with a client and going (8:58) through, I felt like I was spending, you know, a third of my time in marketing, (9:02) a third of my time selling myself, a third of my time doing taxes and payroll (9:06) and accounting. And I had a couple of subcontractors working for me and it (9:09) just wasn't doing what I love. So, um, that transition from moonlighting to (9:14) full-time to being in an agency, I really do like working with my agency now (9:18) because, you know, I'm spending 90% of my time doing marketing.I don't have (9:24) to be traveling to shows all around the country, doing meet and greets to try (9:28) to find new clients. I'm not dealing with legal stuff and contracts a lot. I'm (9:32) really just doing the marketing I love, which is really huge and it's, it's a (9:37) nice place to be.(9:41) Yeah. Um, and what about the moonlighting thing? Is that, does that, does the (9:46) consulting thing satisfy the, the urge to kind of work as a consultant? (9:51) Yeah. So the moonlighting thing, um, I do actually keep, I've got a, what is it? (9:56) A sole, sole member LLC for, for my agency that I had when I was on my own.I (10:00) keep that up and I keep it open. Um, I actually haven't done a lot of work (10:04) there recently. Um, the agency I work for, I actually, if I bring my own (10:09) clients under the agency's umbrella, there's a compensation plan that makes (10:13) it worthwhile to do so.Um, so outside of a small handful of, you know, (10:19) projects that are really too small for the full-time day job agency, where it's (10:24) just, you know, kind of helping out an acquaintance with one or two quick (10:27) projects here or there. Um, I really found it's, you know, with the bigger (10:31) agency, it makes more sense for me to just bring any potential clients under (10:35) their umbrella, get compensated for it. And I don't have to, don't have to deal (10:39) with all the rest of the parts of, uh, consulting.(10:42) Yeah, that's true. Because it's, it's much more closer, you know, like we (10:46) talked about the competitive aspect of it. I mean, in a sense, if you were (10:49) moonlighting at an agency, that doesn't make any sense.Um, and so this totally, (10:54) it totally, I'm super happy that your agency has a thing where bringing in new (10:59) clients gets you compensated because they're essentially being a salesperson (11:04) at that point. And, and, um, you know, for small acquaintances and everybody (11:09) else. So when you were moonlighting though, how did you find those people? (11:13) Um, how did you find your, did you just kind of ex-colleagues or friends? Did (11:19) you proactively go looking for people? How do you find (11:22) clients for moonlighting? Yeah.So clients for moonlighting, it wasn't, it (11:26) wasn't as proactive. It was really more, um, you know, friends, colleagues, (11:31) acquaintances. Um, I was pretty active at that time.Marketo was the automation (11:35) tool I was spending the most time with. And I used to, you know, I, I spoke at (11:39) Marketo Summit a couple of times. Um, I, I ran a local user group for Marketo (11:44) and we didn't even technically out here in Boise, Idaho, we didn't have the size (11:48) to get an official Marketo user group.So it was, it was officially called the (11:51) marketing automation user group. Um, but I actually ran that and presented (11:55) with, with a couple other people locally. Um, and a lot of my work did come from (12:00) those relationships, going to the in-person events, meeting someone, you (12:04) know, them presenting a problem saying, Oh yeah, that stuff I've dealt with, I (12:06) could help out with.Um, so it was pretty, um, it was a pretty passive way of (12:12) generating, uh, generating leads. And they really just, it kind of, a lot of them (12:16) just land in my lap. Um, when I moved out on my own and ran my full-time solo (12:20) agency, that's where I had to get a lot more proactive with actually going out (12:24) there and finding clients.Yeah. I'm definitely dealing with that a little (12:30) bit myself. I've just been independent for about a year and so was going to (12:34) user group meetings and, you know, trying to talk to people and figure out what (12:37) problems they're having, but we're also right now in the middle of COVID.So not (12:41) as many networking opportunities. Um, so one of my questions for you is both (12:49) from, you know, moonlighting and being independent, um, on scoping out (12:53) projects. Like, did you do hourly work? Did you do a flat rate, a mix of both? (12:58) And also curious, you know, now that you're on the agency side, does someone (13:02) scope all those out for you? And you're like, finally, I'm free.I don't have to, (13:06) you know, figure out how to estimate projects. Cause that's a big question of, (13:10) I think an intimidating barrier to entry for a lot of people that want to kind of (13:14) on their own. Yeah.So I really like scoping as much by projects as I can. Um, (13:21) as, as we all know in this community, um, marketing leadership that isn't plugged (13:25) in, in the operational world, they don't always know what they need. They know (13:28) what they need the end result to be, but sometimes we're in a little bit better (13:31) place knowing what it takes to get there.When you start moving on hourly and (13:36) moving to an hourly billing model, sometimes I've found that there's pushback. (13:40) Why do you need to spend the time with this? This doesn't seem that important to (13:44) me. You know, why, why are we, you know, we should cut hours here and move them (13:48) over in this area.And it, it backs the client into a corner. They feel they (13:52) kind of have to watch what's going on and, and, uh, be more involved in probably (13:58) as healthy for a lot of projects in terms of assigning effort when it's an (14:02) entire project, I can scope out the project and just say, Hey, I know what (14:06) you guys are looking for. Let's talk, let's talk through getting it to that (14:09) end goal.I'll take care of assigning the hours between here and there to (14:13) make it happen. So I really do for the vast majority of projects. I prefer (14:17) that not to say there aren't a handful of things where, you know, when you've (14:21) got a really nebulous project where, uh, you know, requirements are constantly (14:26) changing that kind of thing.I'm just, I won't totally say no to hourly (14:30) billing and I'll give the option, but I always try to make it clear with (14:34) clients that, um, project bidding works out better for them because they're (14:38) really going to get me at a cheaper hourly rate. Um, then doing it hour by (14:42) hour, that hour by hour gives some flexibility to them, but they end up, I (14:46) basically try to pitch in that they end up usually paying a little bit more for (14:50) that. Yeah, I agree.I've definitely found that as well. It's let's focus on (14:53) what the end goal is here. You know, if you want to build something to be more (14:57) efficient and easier for your internal teams to use, it's focused on that and (15:01) not, Oh, it took you 45 minutes to build a, you know, an email program or (15:05) something like that.Yeah, exactly. And I'm, I'm lucky now that I, with the (15:10) agency I'm at, I don't, I don't write my own SOW as a majority of the time. We (15:14) do have a couple of dedicated sales reps and it works out great.We've got a (15:17) good tight relationship with them. They usually, when they're scoping projects (15:21) where, you know, the, the consultants that are going to deliver on it are (15:24) fairly involved in generating effort estimates and that kind of thing. But (15:28) ultimately, you know, I, I don't have to deal with the back and the fourth, the (15:31) client.I give my input on what it's going to take. And then the sales team (15:36) sells the deal. And then I get to work to meeting the goals, the SOW they laid (15:40) out.(15:42) Alvin, do you have any advice or thoughts for anybody who's currently in (15:50) an, at a company, at a role, at a mops role and thinking about going into (15:55) consulting? (15:56) Yeah, I'd say it's a, it's a really good place to look at. There's one of the (16:00) challenges in marketing operations is a lot of companies don't have the (16:04) bandwidth to need a marketing operations person full time. And I'm sure people (16:09) feel this pain when you're in a client side role, unless it's at a very large (16:12) company, there's weeks where you're putting in 60 hours and there's weeks (16:16) where you've got 15 hours of work and there's always kind of an awkward, you (16:20) know, trying to pad those 16 hour weeks to make them look like you're busier (16:23) and trying to trim down on the 60 hour weeks.And that's a tough place to be. (16:28) And one of the things I can encourage those that are in client side roles, it (16:31) can get better. And I think for a lot of marketing operations, at least for (16:36) smaller companies, consulting is a better fit.So if you can make that (16:40) transition, it's a great way to go. And I think opening it up with first off (16:46) getting your, getting your current company's permission, I really would (16:49) advocate that trying to be sneaky of seeing that fall through for some (16:52) colleagues on time to time, get your company's current permission and really (16:56) stay plugged in to the communities that are, you know, working with the (17:00) tools that you want to be working with. And whether that's in person events (17:04) like user groups, whether that's Slack communities, online forums, really (17:09) staying plugged into those, not only are you going to be increasing your (17:12) knowledge, but you are going to meet, meet the people who are looking for the (17:17) kind of assistance you can lend to them.(17:19) That's awesome. That's so much, so much great advice. And Alden, thanks for (17:24) taking the time to chat with us today.(17:26) For sure. It's been great talking to you and thanks for having me on today, Grant. (17:30) Thanks.Take care. (17:32) We'll talk to you guys later. Thank you so much.(17:33) Thank you. (17:34) Bye. (17:35) Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of SMTC Podcast.If you like (17:41) this episode, please rate us on whatever platform you're listening us on. The (17:46) ratings make this podcast better and make it easier for other people to (17:51) discover it as well. Also be sure to subscribe.And if you haven't already (17:55) join the SMTC by going to join smtc.com and join as a member. It's free. (18:00) It's just a mailing list where we tell you about new episodes.We look (18:04) forward to hearing from you. Bye.