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Courtney McAara: Hello, I'm Courtney Makara, and this is the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast. SMTC has joined forces with the marketingops. com community, but our mission is still the same, to educate and support anyone involved in the MarTech world as a consultant.

Mike RIzzo: Hey, this is Mike from MarketingOps. com. If you're thinking about going into consulting or you're already a successful consultant, join us online by becoming a member. As a pro member, you can join the SMTC and other private networks at MarketingOps. com. 

Courtney McAara: In this podcast series, Grant Gregorian and I interviewed guests on their journeys as consultants.

Courtney McAara: We discussed all that it means to be a great MarTech consultant from setting up their business or joining an agency, And how to find new clients and keep their existing clients happy. I hope you enjoy the interview.

 Joining Grant and I today is Carrie Picklesheimer.

Based in Jacksonville, Florida. Hi guys. Hello, Courtney and Grant. Hello. Welcome. Thanks for joining us. I'm so [00:01:00] happy to be here. Great. Well, we just want to talk all about Martech consulting, uh, the in house, the outhouse, the, you know, all in between. So it sounds like you have done a little bit of it all. I have, I, I have been outhoused before.

Um, I, my career, I actually, um, I always like to bring it back to where I started, which was, uh, I'm a graphic designer by trade. And then, uh, through the process of working at ad agencies and working my way up at different places, ended up working, um, as a sales and marketing manager where I kind of used a little bit of design and a lot of marketing.

And through there, my career has just evolved more into the marketing and technology space. So I spent about 12 years, uh, working in house marketing, uh, for a fleet management software company. I always describe them as kind of like Salesforce, but for vehicle maintenance. And I was really lucky, um, while I was there that they, um, implemented Marketo.

We were already using Salesforce. [00:02:00] So I got really familiar kind of as a Jack of all trades, uh, working in Marketo. And, you know, about a year into it, I remember thinking, I don't think I'll ever do a job again where I can't use Marketo. That's so cute. I love that. Yeah. Right. And so, um, through that, we were able to grow a team to about five.

I've done a marketing operations role, and then I've, uh, consulted independently for about a year before I joined percuto, um, where I'm a senior consultant. So I've kind of gotten to experience all of the different things that you. mentioned earlier. Well, I want to go to that transition from, you know, you had your in house role and you were loving the tool.

You grew your team. Why rock the boat? Why change? Was it like career growth motivated or? You know, it was a combination of career growth, uh, motivated. I feel like, um, so a combination of that and then also family life. Um, sometimes when you're in house, it is tech. You're pulled in so many [00:03:00] different directions, you know, I wasn't just doing marketing automation or ops, you know, we're also doing direct mail.

We're also putting on trade shows. We're also making sure that we've got business cards for people, you know, kind of the common story about how they expect you, everybody in marketing to be a unicorn. Um, and so there was, after a while, it was a bit of a burnout. Um, but I also loved what I was doing. And so getting into the operation side, I really enjoy getting to kind of solve.

New problems and consulting Was that is that opportunity, right? Like you're always working with new clients Uh, or clients are bringing you new problems. So each day is a little bit different. So that's kind of how I decided to step out of the in house world, um was just the opportunity to kind of work on my own and tackle those new problems for different clients.

When you say that sentence, just like, I decided to step out and do my own thing. I know when I decided it was, you know, a very long decision with lots of nerves of, you know, [00:04:00] imposter syndrome. How, how did that go for you? Oh, I still have imposter syndrome all the time, right? Like, I feel like you just kind of carry that along in your backpack with you.

Um, but I think that I didn't go out thinking any big broad, I didn't go out with like a huge goal. I made a very modest budget for myself thinking, okay, if I can get two clients and I can bill X number of hours a week, can I make do? And my first thought was making do and, um, because I've always loved design and business.

I, I also enjoy the challenge. I enjoy the challenge of, um, running my own business, you know, like doing my own marketing, networking with people that mattered to me, um, setting up my own spreadsheets, having a billing software. I liked, I love all of that. So, Do you still love all of that? I still love all of that.

Like I have spreadsheets for everything. Um, absolutely. I mean, I feel like, I [00:05:00] feel like the experience of deciding to go out on my own, making the business decision to see, like, can I make this happen myself? What costs do I have? What do I need to consider as I grow? It's been really instrumental for the way that I approach, you know, being in, uh, at an agency.

Or if I were ever to go back in house is because I have a very conscious view of how valuable time is. So I think that like for the company that I work for, but also my clients. Did you, a lot of people, you know, before setting out on their own, Like try to pick up clients like even while they're doing the full time thing Did you how did you actually did you like save up money or did you already know somebody who needed a consultant?

Can you get more specific into how like literally you did that? Absolutely. I think um one thing that I feel like is a very Base level thing to say that I feel like I had little bit of a advantage [00:06:00] is that my husband was military Um, he's retired now, but at the time he was active duty And so I don't have I didn't have to pay for health care which in america as you know is like a huge Fixed cost that you have to consider so I feel like I had I was I'm, very lucky to have a very strong safety net with that and I feel like it's important to say that Because if I didn't give credit to that, it's not really fair to everybody else who's making that decision Um Should you go in house or not?

Like if you, if you can get into a position where you have healthcare covered in some way, that's a really important part of it. Um, I did save money. Like I, I put aside some money and then just kind of worked on like downgrading my expenses so that going out, I knew I didn't have a lot to do, you know, like I wasn't.

I made it so that I didn't have high hurdles to be successful. Right. And you mentioned that you had a, like a number in your head to like make do, how did you come up with that? What was the formula? Like, [00:07:00] Oh, that's a really good question. Um, you know, now that I've been doing this consulting for a few years, I have a better sense of how much time I can use.

Do you want to revise that formula? I think, um, Thanks. You know, I think when you decide to go out on your own, a big part that's easy to forget about is that you are going to have to actively work to market yourself. And so referrals are great. Um, I try to stay in touch with a lot of people. So I had, I have a lot of connections from just jobs that I've had in the past or people who have moved on.

I really enjoy keeping in touch with people. So that helped a little bit, but I assumed that I would not be able to just jump right into full time hours. So I backed it off and said, well, could I, could I bill instead of 40 hours a week? Is it likely that I could build 20? So that's where I set like the 20 hour threshold, like, okay, I feel like I can make it at 20.

And then I [00:08:00] recalled from, you know, when I worked at Um, in house and we looked at maybe hiring agencies. I had a bit of a sense of the hour, the hourly rate that they charged. And so I've also, I have had freelance graphic design. Um, I've done that for years on the side. So I did have that as a basis. Um, but I did also like say, well, it seemed like, Like I think at the time I was concerned about charging over a hundred dollars an hour I know agencies were charging well over 200 an hour, but I thought you know, i'm never done this before Someone's gonna have to kind of take a gamble on me I want that under a hundred dollar threshold so it doesn't have that like sticker shot.

And so I said well Probably won't get tonight. I'm going to say 85 an hour. So I said, can I make it at 20, 20 hours a week on 85 an hour? And so that was kind of like the basis of where I said, and then I set aside like 30 percent for taxes. Um, you know, then I figured I'm going to have to hire an accountant to do my taxes cause I don't know how to do corporate taxes.

Was [00:09:00] that the, What would you change, you know in hindsight if you were to do it all over again, was that was that reason? I mean, it's like from all the things that you said like it all sounds like like it is in fact a reasonable thing It's pretty reasonable. Yeah, like I like the 20 hour thing that you weren't thinking about 40.

That's a common mistake right there, right? So you avoided that? Um 85, you know as a freelancer, it's a lot of times why people look for freelancers They say they don't have to pay the 200 and right cost benefit to that as well. So that's not And it's not like overly too low, perhaps maybe, maybe a little bit, but not too much.

And then it comes out to like a reasonable, like living wage. Exactly. And then, yeah. And I think the other thing that was, um, I was really lucky. My dad growing up ran a construction company and he just drilled into our head, the danger of debt, um, being like really fiscally responsible. So. I think I went in having [00:10:00] had that experience growing up with him to know, like, just get what you need when you need it.

So like I, I had an older computer, I didn't have a big monitor. I, you know, I, I use a software called Freshbook. So like looked around for like what were inexpensive ways I could do things and I didn't try to take on too much at the beginning. Mm hmm. And like you said, you have a gazillion spreadsheets. I have the same thing.

You know, I'm using Google Drive spreadsheets to track things for a while until I finally upgraded to FreshBooks. Exactly. So do you use FreshBooks too? I do. Yeah. Shout out to them. Yeah. Shout out to FreshBooks. Maybe they can be a sponsor for you one day. Sponsored by. Just sponsored with love by FreshBooks.

There you go. Um, so then, um, I mean, it sounds lovely. It sounds like you love it. It's in your DNA. Why join an agency? It's an also very good question. So, um, when I went out on my own, I think my [00:11:00] kids were six and four, four, 10 and eight. Now, um, it was great. I loved it. It gave me a lot of flexibility and, um, that was exactly what I needed at the time.

And I love doing it. And then Procuto approached me and we, I had spoken with Procuto at many different points over my career. And I know a lot of people who work there. And truly when I looked at what they were doing in their, their value statement, it really fit with what I wanted to do. And so the opportunity to kind of join a team where I could collaborate, um, is why I decided to, to join Percuto.

And it's been an immensely positive. Experience. I've met phenomenal consultants. I've learned so much. Um, you know, there's just so many different areas of, of marketing automation and so many different add on technologies that it really takes a village to master those things. Um, and I've been really lucky to work with some great clients that introduced me to parts of the systems that I had not worked on before.

So I kind of took a [00:12:00] gamble and I've been there about three years and it's been great. That's interesting. Do you feel like. Part of it was a relief to you don't have to market yourself anymore. Was that like a little bit of part of the decision or like, Oh, they can just assign me clients and I can, you know, yes.

And I think too, one thing that like the biggest misnomer I hear from people That I was lucky not to have because I grew up with my dad who ran a construction company was like, it's great. I'm going to be my own boss. I'll have all this free time. And I always make the argument that everybody has a boss.

It might be your boss, or if you're freelance, it's your clients and clients are far more demanding of bosses than bosses, um, or can be. And I think the other thing I realized too, is that, you know, when you are in the. And then you have to consider vacation coverage for yourself. You have to consider what happens if you have, uh, you know, you get sick and you've got a deadline.

How do you handle that? So that is a challenge that [00:13:00] being in an agency, you don't really have to worry about because you have a team approach. And you mentioned that, did you say that when you went. Uh, so a freelance, uh, when you were doing solo that you had two kids at the time, I did, what was that? Like, are you crazy?

What are you doing? Or did you need that? Or did you, it was so easy back then. Grant school was in session. No, you know, I was very diligent about, um, I've worked from home. For many years on my own, you know, even working in in house, I always worked remotely for the company that I worked for. And so I'm very used to kind of like a very methodical schedule.

I do better when I have kind of parameters in place. So my process was to drop my kids off at school, Come back home, get in my office and, um, either attack like a client project for the day or work on writing my own content or something business related. And so I kept, I keep a [00:14:00] very kind of pseudo strict schedule on what I know I need to accomplish for the day.

I didn't, I didn't, I never feel like success happens by accident, you know? And so I feel like it's just a matter of like. Continually going even if you don't have client work. What are you doing to better yourself as you go? What are you doing to get your name out there? What are you doing to like learn more?

About the industry and the market that you're in I mean, I was just joking about the are you crazy because when I went um, Solo consultant, uh many years ago for the first time. I had a two year old Also, and I remember somebody gave me this like amazing advice at the time because Part of my part of my brain was like, oh, you're supposed to be a dad and like responsible and have a job And then somebody else said it was like what a what a burden to place on your children if you have a dream or if you Want to pursue something, um [00:15:00] to then have to tell them when they grow up.

It's like hey, you know, I Did not pursue my dreams because of you like I had found that job where I didn't like And it was just for you and now you you know Don't talk to me. Don't talk back to me, young man, because you know, I sacrificed for, you know what I mean? Like on the one hand, that sounds like a noble thing to do, but on the other hand, I was like, Oh my God, like I can't do that to them.

Dad's got to go pursue his dreams because that's what I would want them to do when they grow up. Oh yeah, totally. Right. Like, and um, there's a really good podcast, the Glennon Doyle interview that she does with Brene Brown that talks about what we do for our kids. Not what we tell them, it's what we show them.

Yes. And what you say about pursuing your own dream. And I also think having the courage to bet on yourself. Yes. Like what a great lesson to teach. And they'll pick it up. I mean, they're two, I mean, who knows what they'll, well, that's awesome. Yeah. [00:16:00] Well, and when you have a two year old at home, any, any work that you do is crazy.

That's true. That's true. Um, there is one thing, uh, that I noticed. You said that, um, in terms of, uh, always trying to better yourself. I noticed that on LinkedIn, uh, you posted a thing that said that I'm just going to read it cause it was great. I really loved it. And I just want you to comment on it. You said the more I read, the longer I live, the more I realized that success in any venture comes down to the basics.

Treat other people the way you want to be treated, focus on self care, show up, listen without judgment, be honest, put in the effort, seek the positive. And then you say that, like, essentially, there's no shortcuts, there is no magic, you just gotta go and do the things, which is very contrary to what we usually ask in a podcast, which is, what are the three shortcuts to being a successful consultant?

It's interesting. Oh, I'm glad I wrote that. I do feel that way, um, that there isn't [00:17:00] really much magic. It is just those things. Um, and I feel like when you listen and you read business books or you listen to people that are really inspiring or even like, you know, like Simon Sinek and I love, uh, uh, a couple other books that have really touched me, uh, Malcolm Gladwell, like so much of it is just people just continue just like Dory, just keep swimming and, you know.

Dory was the essence of that following that, like, keep looking for the positive. And so I think in terms of consulting, though, like to tag onto that, what is a shortcut or I don't know that there's anything is a shortcut, but the magic is for consulting different than marketing, I think, is that. Time management is like critical, you know, you've got to be able to manage your time.

You also need to have an awareness of your time, right? Like we all have that tendency to like, look at something and say like, I could do that in 10 hours, you know, and three weeks later, you're still like finessing it. And you're like, yeah, that wasn't really a good use of that time. Um, and then [00:18:00] communication, right?

Like if you, you can't just do something for a client and not Explain what you did. Provide the value. I, as a consultant, always felt like my job as a consultant is to get you to a point that you don't need me as a consultant. I want to empower you. Like, if you hire me, I want to make sure that, you know, if you've paid me for 20 hours that you're getting 60 hours worth of value out of it, because then I know you'll refer me.

I know that if I'm doing that by you, I'm helping you get value out of my time and that. just, it's kind of a win win. Um, so I always feel like so much of that is that time management and communicating back to your clients so that they know what's going on. Oh, 100%. I love that idea of like leaving them kind of better off than they, you know, you found each other and kind of having this mutually beneficial relationship.

Do you, now that you've been client facing for so long and on that side, [00:19:00] do you ever consider to see yourself in house again? I mean, Some people say the consultant, you know, side, it's the dark side. And once you go to the dark side, you'll never go back, but there are, there are differences, you know, There are, I think like one thing that I've always loved about in house that you don't really get as much through consulting is the, the long term project, you know, you get to really see the project through and like the journey, I am a total, like, data nerd and I love statistics and all that.

And so many of the times when you're helping your clients with stuff, you don't get to see all the analytics that come of it. You don't get to see like, what's the month over month growth now that you're doing this nurturing program? Um, I like that long term, uh, part of. Being in house. Um, and I also really enjoy how like when you're in house, you tend to work with a lot of people outside of marketing, which is really cool.

Yeah. Other departments. Other departments. Yeah. Yeah. So I can see it. I can see you. [00:20:00] You just love no matter what you do. I love that. I do. I love no matter what I do. Well, it was a pleasure to talk to you and thanks for taking the time. Thank you, Grant. And thank you for Courtney. And thank you for starting this.

I think. This is a wonderful thing and I really appreciate the voices you are bringing to this. Oh, well, thank you. And thank you for listening to this episode of SMTC Podcast. If you like this episode, please rate us on whatever platform you're listening on. The ratings help us make the podcast better and make it easier for other people to discover it as well.

Be sure to subscribe and if you haven't already, join the SMTC by going to JoinSMTC. com and join as a member. It's free. It's just a newsletter. It's easy. We look forward to hearing from you. [00:21:00] Bye.